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Old October 6th, 2012, 08:04 AM   #151
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Re: Canon EOS C100

I agree, few of us will go to broadcast, but it may be becoming more prevalent to color grade. AVCHD doesn't allow for much of that.


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Originally Posted by Nigel Barker View Post
I suspect that the majority of us on this forum will never be producing anything for broadcast & are generally shooting & editing for the Web or DVD/Blu-ray disc in which case AVCHD may well be good enough for our purposes just as HDV was good enough for our purposes & before that DV & before that VHS were also good enough.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 08:40 AM   #152
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Re: Canon EOS C100

I do not have much of a dog in this hunt, but I do color grade everything I shoot. I edit using Edius and primary & secondary color correction are realtime. So more information from any camera I would use is welcomed.

As time marches on, secondary color correction will be more commonplace making an investment in an AVCHD cam look worse and worse. Just my opinion! We are no longer held back by memory speed...
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Old October 6th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #153
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Re: Canon EOS C100

Just noticed that here in the UK Jigsaw24 have now got the C100 listed on their website for delivery in 5 to 7 days. Very keen price too - at 3829 ex VAT - much lower than the pre-order price I have got with another UK dealer!

Will be interesting to see if this delivery prediction pans out. I've bought expensive cams and apple computers from them in the past and they are a reputable dealer so I imagine this might mean C100s will hit these shores very soon. Blummin hope so as I have a number of shoots in the next few months where it would come in handy!

Canon Cinema EOS C100 EF Super35MM Digital Camcorder - Jigsaw24
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Old October 7th, 2012, 05:48 PM   #154
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Re: Canon EOS C100

As much as I want a better codec too, the C100 does seem to fit pretty neatly with everything else in that price range. People grade the heck out of their 5D footage and whatnot, even though it doesn't produce images ideal for the that sort of thing.
The only thing I can see making them sit up in this regard would be the BMC and the form factor and crop factor kinda limits its applications. I was thinking maybe the Digi-Bolex might increase the spread of that sort of thing, but that seems to have the same niche if I read it right (actually its lens flexibility remains to be seen, I think).
There's already Ninja bundles for the C100 and the price still seems pretty competitive even with that. So I guess Atomos are happy anyway.
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Old October 7th, 2012, 08:47 PM   #155
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Re: Canon EOS C100

It's interesting to note what for many are considered this camera's shortcomings. 50 mb/s is desirable for other reasons, but grading would be low on my list.

How much grading do people really need to do these days? I can't be alone in getting slightly bored of over the top grading, which for some people seems to be a standard procedure. Another thing is slow motion. Yes it can be wonderful, but after the Olympics i'm pretty much slo-moed out for the time being, thanks. I'd only just recovered from the last world cup, where we got endless shots of footballer's acne in both Hi-Def, and at a zillion frames per second. Yuck......
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Old October 7th, 2012, 11:59 PM   #156
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Re: Canon EOS C100

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Originally Posted by Dom Stevenson View Post
How much grading do people really need to do these days? I can't be alone in getting slightly bored of over the top grading, which for some people seems to be a standard procedure.
The answer to your first question should be: "as much as is necessary to achieve the desired look". Hopefully that isn't over-the-top. Sometimes there's a need to do a significant amount of pushing and pulling simply to achieve a balanced, deceptive "non-look". I've laid in as many as five windows onto a shot that couldn't be controlled on-set for one reason or another, something akin to dodging and burning. If done properly, the results are impossible to detect.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 11:13 AM   #157
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Re: Canon EOS C100

Couldn't agree more Charles.
I use multiple windows and extensive grading daily just to have a quality image, as we do in photography.
We rarely add a "look" to our work. We get that on set/location.

The world is an imperfect environment and even the best controlled location work creates challenges.
Having the skills and tools to correct/perfect things in post is another level of professionalism....if you've got the skills and tools.

I get a sense that the folks that think that grading is about snowboard videos don't really understand how much of it is involved in the looks that they see and appreciate every day.

Same with slo-mo. I've never even thought of asking another pro why they would need to have a gradable codec or slow motion capabilities in their camera.

If a professional uses slow motion in a film or TV spot it's because it was either what was creatively appropriate for the scene or because the client requested it.

To me it's like questioning why fine restaurants serve wine and champagne when there are so many stumbling drunks in the world.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 11:26 AM   #158
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Re: Canon EOS C100

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Originally Posted by Charles Papert View Post
If done properly, the results are impossible to detect.
A skill that takes time and a great eye along with software training to make happen. One that I am a long way from mastering.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #159
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Re: Canon EOS C100

Just an update that this afternoon I see CVP here in the UK have now matched the Jigsaw24 price I mentioned over the weekend.

Canon Cinema EOS C100 EF (C-100, 100C, EOS) super 35mm digital cinematography camcorder with EF lens mount

I was considering buying an additional Canon BP975 battery for my C100 (when I get it) but am now leaning more towards another Canon BP955, or two. I've read that these batteries give about 260 min and 190 min performance respectively on the C300 (I assume it might be similar on the C100).

I like the idea of keeping the camera as small and light as possible (especially since I am likely to be putting and external recorder on it some time soon), even though I know this is not the most cost effective way of buying power.

At least the smaller BP955 will not stick out at the back any further than the LCD. Also, once I've worked out Steadicam settings that's one more variable I can ignore if I change batteries mid-shoot!
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Old October 8th, 2012, 11:53 AM   #160
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Re: Canon EOS C100

Andy, I did the same and purchased extra 955 batteries since they let you close the battery door. The bigger batteries do not.

When I am on my shoulder I will use my Switrox batteries which go off the back to balance the rig. Those will run the camera for 1/2 a day at 130w/h each.
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Old October 9th, 2012, 03:03 AM   #161
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Re: Canon EOS C100

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Originally Posted by Charles Papert View Post
The answer to your first question should be: "as much as is necessary to achieve the desired look". Hopefully that isn't over-the-top. Sometimes there's a need to do a significant amount of pushing and pulling simply to achieve a balanced, deceptive "non-look". I've laid in as many as five windows onto a shot that couldn't be controlled on-set for one reason or another, something akin to dodging and burning. If done properly, the results are impossible to detect.

Then clearly you're someone who needs the additional "box on the back" of the C100. But if i was doing higher end stuff, i'd probably get the 300 version anyway. My general point though, is that this camera looks to be superb as it is, and if you need the extra MB/s you can do that too. Slo-mo will no doubt become available soon. At a price.
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Old October 9th, 2012, 03:13 AM   #162
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Re: Canon EOS C100

Probably--since I already own a Nanoflash, I am indeed considering the C100. I do start to wonder at that point what advantage the C300 would have over the 100--starts to get slim (if I need to monitor out HD-SDI, as I do, the Nano takes care of the HDMI conversion for me).

There is an assumption out there that 8-bit is simply not useable with log footage. I have learned otherwise, as long as it's not paired with low bitrate or color sampling. Recording the F3 out to XDCXAM (4:2:2 50mbs) yielded perfectly good results that held up under all kinds of grading. The only place I saw issues was pulling mattes off green screen.
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Old October 10th, 2012, 05:08 PM   #163
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Re: Canon EOS C100

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Originally Posted by Jim Martin View Post
We had a C100 on Tuesday here at Filmtools.......
Canon Cinema EOS C100 at Filmtools - YouTube

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Jim, the top handle looks like it attaches in a way similar to the FS100. The FS's handle can come loose. Was this an issue with the C100?
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Old October 10th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #164
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Re: Canon EOS C100

Being an owner of a C300 the top handle is just waiting to break. I am going to add a Movcam top handle.
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Old October 12th, 2012, 02:31 AM   #165
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Re: Canon EOS C100

Charles. I'm sure you are already aware of this, but others here may not. There is a big miss-understanding over what the consequences of using 8 bit over 10 bit normally are when grading and pushing material in post, something I did not fully appreciate until recently. We all know the key difference is 235 luma levels for 8 bit and 940 luma levels for 10 bit . The assumption is that a consequence of this will be banding and stair stepping in 8 bit footage after grading due to not enough grey shades or luma levels. In reality this is rarely the case when grading as the edit application will calculate in between values between these steps based on average values between the previous and next luma level in effect smoothing out any banding. One of the real consequences of using an 8 bit codec, if the camera noise level is low enough is a loss of subtle details and textures that might be visible with a 10 bit codec. The sensors in most of these mid range and above cameras are often 12 or 14bit, so the sensor is capturing a lot of very subtle textures. When this gets converted down to 8 bit a lot of these subtle details are thrown away or rounded up/down as they fall between the rather coarse luma shades. These can never be recovered in post as basically they are never recorded. So potentially with an 8 bit camera you may loose some subtle textures, perhaps on faces and skin, fabric and plant textures or clouds in a bright sky.
Will you notice this? Perhaps not, especially if you have nothing else to compare it to. Also if your using any gain or the camera is noisy anyway the noise will mask and dither these subtleties anyway. But with a quiet camera it is one of those things that can give the images a more filmic verisimilitude.

Banding and stair stepping tends to be a result of compression noise, macro blocking and poor encoding rather than purely a lack of bits. So raising the recording data rate and using a better codec with an external recorder will often eliminate banding, but won't gain you those subtle details unless you start off with a 10 bit (or better) output.
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