Canon EOS C100

Glen Vandermolen · September 10th, 2012, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Koha

I thought it looked pretty sweet but you guys know a hell of a lot more about it than me.

No, we don't. The camera isn't out yet, no one has had a chance to do a review.

Jim Giberti · September 10th, 2012, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson

OK, I've calmed down a little bit .....Some interesting shots in the 'making of/behind the scenes' type video which can be found on this Canon website link:

Canon: CINEMA EOS SYSTEM Sample Movie?EOS C100

There's a lot to like about this camera, although our biggest issue with it and the C300 is finding the best match for it when we need 60p 1080 (which is a lot).

The one thing that's really obvious from the behind the scenes is that they didn't consider the EVF to be quite up to par, as they had a Zacuto gaffer taped to the LCD.

A first rate VF is pretty important for the one person/doc market they say C100 is aimed at.
The push button AF and exposure could be pretty cool, in a pinch, for the one take action sports we do a lot of, but a great VF is more so.

The C300 is looking more and more like the best option here.

Glen Vandermolen · September 10th, 2012, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Koha

I thought it looked pretty sweet but you guys know a hell of a lot more about it than me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

There's a lot to like about this camera, although our biggest issue with it and the C300 is finding the best match for it when we need 60p 1080 (which is a lot).

The one thing that's really obvious from the behind the scenes is that they didn't consider the EVF to be quite up to par, as they had a Zacuto gaffer taped to the LCD.

A first rate VF is pretty important for the one person/doc market they say C100 is aimed at.
The push button AF and exposure could be pretty cool, in a pinch, for the one take action sports we do a lot of, but a great VF is more so.

The C300 is looking more and more like the best option here.

Of course, the C300 is a better option. Now, can you afford the $16,000 price tag? For those of us that can't, the C100 is an affordable option. In my case, the best option, since there's no way I can economically justify the C300.
If you need 1080/60P, neither camera is for you. Perhaps the FS100/700?

Philip Lipetz · September 11th, 2012, 01:43 AM

The film was shot in Wide DR Gamma, which adds range into blacks and then the blacks were delibrately crushed by the director who wanted it to look like a 5d, so it did. This test shows nothing except that Canon marketing has no idea of what consumers want to see and what directors did to their camera during shooting,

Andy Wilkinson · September 11th, 2012, 03:41 AM

OK, I've got an hour while I render out a wedding video - don't normally do them but I got asked - so there you go!

Here are my personal concerns when I watched that first official Canon C100 video. OK, the story was very crass/naff but we can all see beyond that. It was designed to be a film that gave many locations, activities and opportunities to show off the strengths of the C100, right?

Well, that's why I was so disappointed!

1. Heavy grading and lots of quick shot cuts, almost deliberate slow pans/slight movements - to kill detail - they trying to hide something? Certainly, I saw some blown out highlights (faces/planes etc.). We all know it's impossible to fully judge quality on a Vimeo encoded 720p viewed on the web - but web viewing is how most of my clients view my work and I have seen stunning C300 footage via this medium.
2. Very DSLR look with crushed blacks - I can imagine someone could produce a similar looking video with a Canon DSLR like a 5DMkIII (albeit lacking some sharpness in a few of the plane etc. shots). We now know he did this look deliberately....seems many people like the look (and Philip Bloom liked it on Vimeo...) so maybe it's just me. Seems to me, you'd need to convince DSLR shooters that this is a big step up from "that look", not just a very expensive way of producing more of same? But what do I know! Canon marketing and the DoP must have had a reason for this approach but it eludes me.
3. As mentioned, there is a quick timelapse or two in there, where we all know it was done in post, not camera! Or maybe we really are getting more frame rate options, and especially the much needed 720p50/60 for slo mo etc. (which is a major oversight in the currently announced specs and will kill this camera for some, probably many, of its intended target buyers).
4. Sound syncing (and sound in general) was awful in some parts, e.g. footsteps - I'm amazed that got past the approval stage for worldwide launch of such an important product for Canon. After all, isn't one of the benefits of the C100 over DSLRs supposed to be the provision of professional XLR capture and sound controls etc?
5. Much more importantly, many times the focus was not "nailed" - I saw quite a few focus errors. Now is that because the fixed EVF and LCD (and focussing tools provided, peaking and expanded focus) are not up to the task? As already mentioned, in the "behind the scenes" video you can see them using a makeshift tape hood for the LCD, and sometimes a Zacutto viewer (or similar) gaffer taped to the LCD (Note to makers of those things - maybe you've got a market opportunity here...). This worries me as it does really tend to imply that the non-adjustable EVF and perhaps that LCD are weak areas for nailing focus - not good for a sole operator like me/many others that the camera is targeted at.

Now some positives (which come almost entirely from the behind the scenes video)

1. This is (as I hoped) going to be a documentary/run-n-gun camera well suited to my personal needs. Small footprint, light, highly configureable, e.g. in stripped down format for steadicam work, tight space work, should (on paper) be excellent in low light work (it's blummin dim in some of the factories I film in!) etc. etc.
2. Impression I got was that the camera is as rugged as my 7D from the environments that were showcased - good news for the work I do! Saw lots of scenarios where I'd struggle with my EX3.

I'm still hoping C100 plus external recorder = C300 look at a price I can afford. I cannot justify a C300 price tag so I'm not cancelling my pre-order just yet - but I hope to see more informative video(s) soon.

Obviously, the above are my own opinions based on this first C100 demo film and I hope I'm proved wrong on some of my points as more video material becomes available.

I'd be very interested to read what others think.

EDIT: I also just found this video from IBC on YouTube. Now my German's not what it used to be... but there are some interesting menu operation etc. shots of the C100 as he describes its various functions:

Noa Put · September 11th, 2012, 08:11 AM

I found the official sample video a bit ehm... weird, look at 01:25 and again at 04:26 in the background, there's something strange going on with all verticle lines which looks like aliasing. I also noticed the very heavy grading in the first part of the image and several out of focus stuff, and there seem to be some gopro footage trown in as well. That sample video would not make me running to the stores to get one.

Nigel Barker · September 11th, 2012, 08:15 AM

I had read that the C100 is 15% smaller than the C300 but hadn't quite realised how much smaller it is because unless Dieter Kuepperbusch (Product Intelligence Consultant) has hands like shovels it really is a lot smaller than the C300. Like a 60D compared to the 5D2 or 5D3 rather than a 7D.

The lens is the newish 24mm F/2.8 with IS which is an EF lens but as it is the same price as the 17-55mm F/2.8 IS EF-S lens would not be my first choice of a lens for the C100.

The menu looks the same as the C300 which is the same as the XF105/305 series.

Andy Wilkinson · September 11th, 2012, 10:44 AM

Another IBC Video of the C100, this time mostly in English and with the C100 sporting an aftermarket finder (Zacutto?) attached - without gaffer tape - plus a brace.

Murray Christian · September 11th, 2012, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson

2. Very DSLR look with crushed blacks - I can imagine someone could produce a similar looking video with a Canon DSLR like a 5DMkIII (albeit lacking some sharpness in a few of the plane etc. shots). We now know he did this look deliberately....seems many people like the look (and Philip Bloom liked it on Vimeo...) so maybe it's just me. Seems to me, you'd need to convince DSLR shooters that this is a big step up from "that look", not just a very expensive way of producing more of same? But what do I know! Canon marketing and the DoP must have had a reason for this approach but it eludes me.

It's a pretty crap video, agreed. But it's mostly run-n gun looking stuff and for that it's ok I guess. I think the 'upgrade' people are most interested in for the money would be less rolling shutter and moire etc (I forget how much better the 5DIII was in this regard) and virtually unlimited clip length and keep all your lenses etc.
I am only guessing but I think people either like that look or know already it's a bit more flexible than just that look, if you know what I mean (people would expect the same latitude or more presumably, without looking at stats). We wouldn't assume it's worse than a DSLR, would we? I mean, I dunno. Maybe I'm too optimistic.
Plenty of people never touched the likes of XFs and so on, is all I'm saying. So, for them the upgrade from their 7D is more obvious. It's crisper than APSC 1080, that's for sure, and handles quick movement and hand holding miles better (and focus; it's not a focus sort of film really).
But, yeah, not that great a film. Canon are weird like that though too, let's not forget. They disowned the best C300 demo of the lot for its irreverent tone (which they presumably paid for).

Noa's observation is interesting. Nothing like that happens anywhere else, even in the same scene from a different set up. I'm going to assume they've done something to the shot or screwed up somehow. Not sure how though; zoomed it in? Shot at the wrong format? A strange effect.

Jim Martin · September 11th, 2012, 11:33 AM

Andy-
I understand your concerns, but as I've told Philip, we really don't know how much Canon-Europe was involved and certainly, Canon USA was not. I'm good friends with the key Canon people that would be involved with any promo video being shot here with the C100 and I have some calls into them to try and clear some things up. Philip did discover that the Vimeo upload was bad so that just re-affirms what I always say....you can't really judge videos posted on the internet, you need to properly view the footage on a good monitor.
That being said, I really believe that this camera, using the HDMI out to a recorder is going to be the same as a C300.....same "magic" chip, log, etc.
Most of all, let's take a breath and have some patience.....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Andy Wilkinson · September 11th, 2012, 11:53 AM

Thanks Jim. I'm hanging on in there with the preorder (with CVP here in the UK - If I was in the USA you'd get the order for sure).

I REALLY want this to be my next camera. It hits so many of the right buttons on my personal wish list for ergonomics, build quality, C300 magic chip etc. (as I explained in detail on my website) so this official launch video came as a bit of a shock.

I'm a scientist/engineer by previous career so I'll revert to type and "await more data" before making any firm conclusions!

Jim Martin · September 11th, 2012, 12:06 PM

Yes....it's getting late over there so go out, get a bite "und Bier"

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Andy Wilkinson · September 11th, 2012, 12:11 PM

You read my mind - just walking out to the pub now!

Jim Giberti · September 11th, 2012, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

Of course, the C300 is a better option. Now, can you afford the $16,000 price tag? For those of us that can't, the C100 is an affordable option. In my case, the best option, since there's no way I can economically justify the C300.
If you need 1080/60P, neither camera is for you. Perhaps the FS100/700?

As I said Glen, the question is which 60p camera to GO with the C100/C300

Of course we all know there's no 60p on either. But as a shop that's been shooting with Canons for years, has sets of L glass and is very integrated with the Canon systems and look, we're very interested in the new C series as new cameras.

Obviously the cost of the C100 is attractive compared to the C300. As a director who does a lot of docs, narrative and sports, the all in one nature of the C100 is nice. I was just making an observation about the Zacuto gaffer taped to the screen and that a quality VF was important for the targeted market.

I'm allowed right?

I won't get into the FS100/700 thing other than to say we have an FS100 and I don't see the 60p of that camera as an ideal match for the C300 or C100 images which is why I made the comment.

Mark Koha · September 11th, 2012, 01:22 PM

Excuse my ignorance, but why is 60p so important for slow mo? And are people really using slow mo that much that it's a make or break deal for a camera? I'm really excited about this release as I am looking to upgrade from my XHA1s. I have been hesitant to buy anything because the technology is changing so fast and finally, they came out with the c300 but it was way out of my budget. I always liked the look of DSLR video but was never quite sold on the idea of shooting on a still camera because of all the extra stuff you need for them to work like a proper video camera. This thing would be killer if the EVF wasn't fixed. They might as well have not put one on there at all.

September 11th, 2012, 01:43 AM	#79
Philip Lipetz Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 273	Re: Canon EOS C100 The film was shot in Wide DR Gamma, which adds range into blacks and then the blacks were delibrately crushed by the director who wanted it to look like a 5d, so it did. This test shows nothing except that Canon marketing has no idea of what consumers want to see and what directors did to their camera during shooting, Last edited by Philip Lipetz; September 11th, 2012 at 04:03 AM.

September 11th, 2012, 03:41 AM	#80
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Canon EOS C100 OK, I've got an hour while I render out a wedding video - don't normally do them but I got asked - so there you go! Here are my personal concerns when I watched that first official Canon C100 video. OK, the story was very crass/naff but we can all see beyond that. It was designed to be a film that gave many locations, activities and opportunities to show off the strengths of the C100, right? Well, that's why I was so disappointed! 1. Heavy grading and lots of quick shot cuts, almost deliberate slow pans/slight movements - to kill detail - they trying to hide something? Certainly, I saw some blown out highlights (faces/planes etc.). We all know it's impossible to fully judge quality on a Vimeo encoded 720p viewed on the web - but web viewing is how most of my clients view my work and I have seen stunning C300 footage via this medium. 2. Very DSLR look with crushed blacks - I can imagine someone could produce a similar looking video with a Canon DSLR like a 5DMkIII (albeit lacking some sharpness in a few of the plane etc. shots). We now know he did this look deliberately....seems many people like the look (and Philip Bloom liked it on Vimeo...) so maybe it's just me. Seems to me, you'd need to convince DSLR shooters that this is a big step up from "that look", not just a very expensive way of producing more of same? But what do I know! Canon marketing and the DoP must have had a reason for this approach but it eludes me. 3. As mentioned, there is a quick timelapse or two in there, where we all know it was done in post, not camera! Or maybe we really are getting more frame rate options, and especially the much needed 720p50/60 for slo mo etc. (which is a major oversight in the currently announced specs and will kill this camera for some, probably many, of its intended target buyers). 4. Sound syncing (and sound in general) was awful in some parts, e.g. footsteps - I'm amazed that got past the approval stage for worldwide launch of such an important product for Canon. After all, isn't one of the benefits of the C100 over DSLRs supposed to be the provision of professional XLR capture and sound controls etc? 5. Much more importantly, many times the focus was not "nailed" - I saw quite a few focus errors. Now is that because the fixed EVF and LCD (and focussing tools provided, peaking and expanded focus) are not up to the task? As already mentioned, in the "behind the scenes" video you can see them using a makeshift tape hood for the LCD, and sometimes a Zacutto viewer (or similar) gaffer taped to the LCD (Note to makers of those things - maybe you've got a market opportunity here...). This worries me as it does really tend to imply that the non-adjustable EVF and perhaps that LCD are weak areas for nailing focus - not good for a sole operator like me/many others that the camera is targeted at. Now some positives (which come almost entirely from the behind the scenes video) 1. This is (as I hoped) going to be a documentary/run-n-gun camera well suited to my personal needs. Small footprint, light, highly configureable, e.g. in stripped down format for steadicam work, tight space work, should (on paper) be excellent in low light work (it's blummin dim in some of the factories I film in!) etc. etc. 2. Impression I got was that the camera is as rugged as my 7D from the environments that were showcased - good news for the work I do! Saw lots of scenarios where I'd struggle with my EX3. I'm still hoping C100 plus external recorder = C300 look at a price I can afford. I cannot justify a C300 price tag so I'm not cancelling my pre-order just yet - but I hope to see more informative video(s) soon. Obviously, the above are my own opinions based on this first C100 demo film and I hope I'm proved wrong on some of my points as more video material becomes available. I'd be very interested to read what others think. EDIT: I also just found this video from IBC on YouTube. Now my German's not what it used to be... but there are some interesting menu operation etc. shots of the C100 as he describes its various functions: IBC2012: Canon EOS C100 - YouTube __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production Last edited by Andy Wilkinson; September 11th, 2012 at 06:28 AM.

September 11th, 2012, 08:11 AM	#81
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Canon EOS C100 I found the official sample video a bit ehm... weird, look at 01:25 and again at 04:26 in the background, there's something strange going on with all verticle lines which looks like aliasing. I also noticed the very heavy grading in the first part of the image and several out of focus stuff, and there seem to be some gopro footage trown in as well. That sample video would not make me running to the stores to get one.

September 11th, 2012, 08:15 AM	#82
Nigel Barker Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Posts: 3,531	Re: Canon EOS C100 I had read that the C100 is 15% smaller than the C300 but hadn't quite realised how much smaller it is because unless Dieter Kuepperbusch (Product Intelligence Consultant) has hands like shovels it really is a lot smaller than the C300. Like a 60D compared to the 5D2 or 5D3 rather than a 7D. The lens is the newish 24mm F/2.8 with IS which is an EF lens but as it is the same price as the 17-55mm F/2.8 IS EF-S lens would not be my first choice of a lens for the C100. The menu looks the same as the C300 which is the same as the XF105/305 series.

September 11th, 2012, 10:44 AM	#83
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Canon EOS C100 Another IBC Video of the C100, this time mostly in English and with the C100 sporting an aftermarket finder (Zacutto?) attached - without gaffer tape - plus a brace. Intro + Canon C100 - YouTube __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

September 11th, 2012, 11:33 AM	#85
Jim Martin Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Burbank, CA 91502 Posts: 949	Re: Canon EOS C100 Andy- I understand your concerns, but as I've told Philip, we really don't know how much Canon-Europe was involved and certainly, Canon USA was not. I'm good friends with the key Canon people that would be involved with any promo video being shot here with the C100 and I have some calls into them to try and clear some things up. Philip did discover that the Vimeo upload was bad so that just re-affirms what I always say....you can't really judge videos posted on the internet, you need to properly view the footage on a good monitor. That being said, I really believe that this camera, using the HDMI out to a recorder is going to be the same as a C300.....same "magic" chip, log, etc. Most of all, let's take a breath and have some patience..... Jim Martin Filmtools.com

September 11th, 2012, 11:53 AM	#86
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Canon EOS C100 Thanks Jim. I'm hanging on in there with the preorder (with CVP here in the UK - If I was in the USA you'd get the order for sure). I REALLY want this to be my next camera. It hits so many of the right buttons on my personal wish list for ergonomics, build quality, C300 magic chip etc. (as I explained in detail on my website) so this official launch video came as a bit of a shock. I'm a scientist/engineer by previous career so I'll revert to type and "await more data" before making any firm conclusions! __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

September 11th, 2012, 12:06 PM	#87
Jim Martin Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Burbank, CA 91502 Posts: 949	Re: Canon EOS C100 Yes....it's getting late over there so go out, get a bite "und Bier" Jim Martin Filmtools.com

September 11th, 2012, 12:11 PM	#88
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Canon EOS C100 You read my mind - just walking out to the pub now! __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

September 11th, 2012, 01:22 PM	#90
Mark Koha Major Player Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 243	Re: Canon EOS C100 Excuse my ignorance, but why is 60p so important for slow mo? And are people really using slow mo that much that it's a make or break deal for a camera? I'm really excited about this release as I am looking to upgrade from my XHA1s. I have been hesitant to buy anything because the technology is changing so fast and finally, they came out with the c300 but it was way out of my budget. I always liked the look of DSLR video but was never quite sold on the idea of shooting on a still camera because of all the extra stuff you need for them to work like a proper video camera. This thing would be killer if the EVF wasn't fixed. They might as well have not put one on there at all.