c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems

Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems
For all Canon Cinema EOS models: C700 / C300 Mk. II / C200 / C100 Mk II and EF / PL lenses.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 19th, 2013, 06:56 AM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 136
c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

hi there ;
thinking of buying new camera and i like the look of the ninja and c100 - like the price i guess really over c300 but also the on cam mic i will come in handy for me as i do lots of run and gun stuff. just wondering how practical a c100 with ninja is for run and gun. Bear in mind that I will also have shotgun mic mounted as well as frequently having a sennheiser wireless transmitter loaded on top as well. My question is 'is this a practical set up ' or would i be better opting for a more tailored option such as a pmw200 or something. I would welcome your feedback; thanks
Barry Hunt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 07:48 AM   #2
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 1,562
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

Like you, I bought the C100 principally for R&G, to supersede my EX1Rs. It's delivered what I wanted: the ergonomics and 'low visual impact' of a DSLR with a beautiful and detailed picture.

However, I looked very carefully at stuff I filmed with the Pix220 and internally, including chromakey and some beauty shots.

Yes, there are differences between the ProRes and the native AVCHD, but for my NON-broadcast uses, the differences weren't anything that the client would pay extra for or even spot in the final product. The images, whilst good looking, have tell-tale issues you can spot with a vectorscope that won't cause problems within 5 generations, but will store issues up later.

From my perspective, clients LOVE the C100 pictures and see it as a step up from EX1, but I trust my EX1s for conference capture - and if they get broken/stolen, I can replace them with the PMW200. But I moved on from EX1 for general work because everyone wants the DoF/Better Glass look of S35, and the C100 is small and cute and powerful. C300 is just a little too big to get away with delicate filming situations.

So... to sort of provide some sort of reply to your original questions, yes - I'm getting a Ninja 2, as somebody who already owns a PIX220, because the Pix is just a little too big and complex for R&G, and doesn't work as well as the C100 as the Ninja does.

But I'll only use the Ninja when I think the job really needs it, as it's another mouth to feed (power), it's a bolt-on box that upsets the orgasmicly beautiful balance of the C100 in its nude state, and it adds a layer of complexity (DIT/data wrangling/File size) that needs time or budget to sort - both of which are in short supply in the worlds of most of us here.

Skinny: Yeah, I'd get one, but use it only when the job actually NEEDS it, and make it a line item on the invoice. PMW200 has its place, like EX1R, a joy to work with, but makes most sense when there's more than one of them at your control. I think people pay/book more for the C100 image.
__________________
Director/Editor - MDMA Ltd: Write, Shoot, Edit, Publish - mattdavis.pro
EX1 x2, C100 --> FCPX & PPro6
Matt Davis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 09:06 AM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Horsham / United Kingdom
Posts: 324
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

With the C300 about to get a $2,000 price drop it surely is not such a huge difference between the C100 at $6,500and Ninja 2 at $995.

Well it's still a difference but you get to have a proper LCD, a superb EVF, a broadcast acceptable codec and none of faff of hooking extra bits of third party kit on with, as Matt Davis succinctly puts it, 'its another mouth to feed'.

Matt also says that the C100 is cute and powerful and that he thinks the C300 is too big for delicate filming situations, but the C300 can strip right down to just the body with full access to all the controls ( The C100 loses functionality with the handle removed )

And if you wait a little longer you might find the C300 being reduced yet again. There is also a heavily rumored new Cinemas Eos camera due to be launched, coming in under the C100.
Mark Dobson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2013, 08:15 PM   #4
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 223
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

Matt and Mark as you might be aware I am also in the same boat as Barry so find both your answers helpful so thanks for posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dobson View Post
With the C300 about to get a $2,000 price drop it surely is not such a huge difference between the C100 at $6,500and Ninja 2 at $995.

Well it's still a difference but you get to have a proper LCD, a superb EVF, a broadcast acceptable codec and none of faff of hooking extra bits of third party kit on with, as Matt Davis succinctly puts it, 'its another mouth to feed'.

Matt also says that the C100 is cute and powerful and that he thinks the C300 is too big for delicate filming situations, but the C300 can strip right down to just the body with full access to all the controls ( The C100 loses functionality with the handle removed )

And if you wait a little longer you might find the C300 being reduced yet again. There is also a heavily rumored new Cinemas Eos camera due to be launched, coming in under the C100.
Mark do you know if we are going to see the reduction in the UK or is it just for our lucky American cousins? If we get the discount I think it would definitely be a C300 for me, if no discount I'm still split 50:50 between a C300 and C100. I can't make it to BVE next week but I am going to Focus on Imaging in Birmingham week after so hopefully Canon will have both models to look at. I had a play with a C300 at the show last year and it was one hell of a nice piece of gear!
Andy Solaini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2013, 06:29 AM   #5
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zürich Switzerland
Posts: 80
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dobson View Post
With the C300 about to get a $2,000 price drop it surely is not such a huge difference between the C100 at $6,500and Ninja 2 at $995.
Reading your post Mark, I don't see any indication that you are being ironic...

Are you saying that a C100 + Ninja 2 at $7500 is almost the same as $14000? Or at least not far from it?

Add to that, that the C100 and Ninja 2 actually is a more potent combination than a C300 alone.

Yes, the issue wether or not you want to add to the camera still remains, but the face value of it all is that you get more picture for $7500 than $14000 (after price drop), if you are willing to have an external recorder on a magic arm.

For myself, I've already concluded that AVCHD is more than enough for most productions. About the only thing that it can't defeat is prejudice. Specialized stuff like green screen also warrants best possible codec.

But if the goal is "just to film" or "just to document", then AVCHD is fine for all purposes including broadcast.

The C100 is a great camera. It has audio, one push AF (not that great) and is pretty small. The LCD is fine and in a better position than on a C300 in my opinion, but that will vary with personal needs.

Canon will not launch another camera similar to C100 and C300 at a cheaper price. There's no room there.

There is however plenty of room below the 1DC. A 3DC would make the circle complete. At least 5Dmk3 stills performance with the S35 performance of 1DC. Price probably similar to C100. You would then trade NDs, audio and dedicated video ergonomics for hires raw stills. I'd probably buy it.

The C300 is a great camera no doubt, but there's no denying that the rug was pulled, or at least jerked quite a bit, under its users feet with the launch of the C100.
Andree Markefors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2013, 08:15 AM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Horsham / United Kingdom
Posts: 324
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

Hi Andree,

No irony intended - just a thought that with C300 prices reported as dropping in a pretty dramatic fashion Barry might want to spend a bit more and get a superior camera with full broadcast specs and with more sophisticated functionality.

Anyone who has experience of filming with a DSLR knows what a bore it is to have to strap on and operate additional third party equipment. If you own a C100 and want to record to a more robust format that is what you will need to do.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying the C100 and Ninja combination is actually is a more potent combination than a C300 alone.

My take is that Canon seem to be making it up as they go along. Having benefited hugely from the DSLR, video large sensor, movement they came up with the C300 which incorporated huge amounts of the technology from the XF305 range of camera and added the

At the launch there was talk of the C500 and what became the EOS-1D C. The C100 appeared to be an afterthought and for some strange reason was given the AVCHD system.

Even the XF100 has the MPEG-2, 50Mbps, 4:2:2 Full HD codec.

There is no consistency in produce development and unless Canon show considerably more interest in listening and responding to their customers feedback many will switch to other manufacturers.
Mark Dobson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2013, 09:04 AM   #7
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 1,562
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

Also, there's the issue of keeping $, £ and € prices in mind - £10k C300 vs $6k C100 + $1k Ninja, the "99˘" hind brain kicks in and skews the result. :)

There's a little bit of me that dreads NAB this year - what if Canon do what Sony did with the path from FS100 to FS700? The FS700 is so much the camera I wanted to buy from the get-go, and it initially devalued the FS100 so much that an upgrade wasn't worth it.

On one hand, Canon have been so conservative with releasing video cameras from the XL1 to the XLH1a (okay, that's not strictly true with the XF line), yet on the other hand, so profligate with the release of video DSLRs, I'm not sure how to take things.

The current line-up is very Apple-like - C100 for event videography, C300 for broadcast, C500 for cinematography. Simples. 1-DC for toe-dipping in 4K and for those who really love their DSLRs. Muddying that with another in-betweenie camera?
__________________
Director/Editor - MDMA Ltd: Write, Shoot, Edit, Publish - mattdavis.pro
EX1 x2, C100 --> FCPX & PPro6

Last edited by Matt Davis; February 20th, 2013 at 12:49 PM.
Matt Davis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2013, 10:03 AM   #8
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zürich Switzerland
Posts: 80
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

Hi Mark,

Let's consider the prices dropped for now. It's $13999 for a C300 after the 2000 price cut.

Regarding potent combination: I simply mean that a C100+Ninja 2 recording to ProRes is even more solid than the C300 internal recording.

I don't think that the C100 is an afterthought. Canon couldn't really invite all of Hollywood and ask them to switch to this 6.5k AVCHD camera; it would have been laughable. They introduced the C300 and some similarly priced, or more expensive equipment.

Still, were any of the featured productions from that event recorded to internal? I'm actually asking... I don't know... But remembering some BTS footage from Mobius, I'm thinking no...

The C100 is Canon's market share move. Announcing it at the original even would have hurt C300 sales in my opinion. Obviously they couldn't give it the same codec, AND add features like One push AF, and Auto IRIS exposure... and sell it so cheap.

The AVCHD codec is Canon saying: look, this is a prosumer camera, so it gets a prosumer price.

The thing is though, that AVCHD looks just as good for all intents and purposes. You can pixel peep differences no problem, but most don't care. And you have the option to go ProRes on external.

I'm simply speaking up since I get a feeling that a lot of recommendations towards the C300 come from people owning that camera. The recommendations are no doubt well intended, but I'm not sure if they are quite objective for someone who isn't yet invested.
Andree Markefors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2013, 11:50 AM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 223
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

I get the impression from current owners and potential buyers (like myself) that these types of cameras have differing plus and minus points depending on each persons perspective. Cameras like the XF300/XF100 just do what they do and that's it, whereas the "C" range seems a bit more complex. There are many features of the C100 I like and a similar amount from the C300. It's a pity the two C cameras are not so definable as the XF300/100 in that the XF100 is basically the same as the 300 but without the long zoom and in a smaller package.

Maybe this bit of a bad move by Canon because it makes deciding which to purchase much harder which brings in the possibility of looking at other brands.


Some people have brought up other brands like the Sony F5 but have failed to mention lens sets. The C100/300 are the only cameras I am looking at right now because I have a range of L series EF lenses that I use with my 1Dx and I am not about to buy a duplicate set from another manufacturer.
Andy Solaini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2013, 01:53 PM   #10
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zürich Switzerland
Posts: 80
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

If you're depending on a good EVF, and you're not using a 3rd party solution, then you need to go with C300.

Similarly if you have reason to believe that 4:2:0 might get you in trouble: reduced color precision can show up as stair-stepping, almost as interlaced footage, in regions with strong color and quick tonal transitions (lot's of contrast), and you don't want to get an external recorder.

Other than that you get two C100's plus a Ninja 2 for the price of one C300.
Andree Markefors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2013, 04:21 PM   #11
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 49
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

In my honest opinion owning a C100 and a Ninja 2 it is not practical for run and gun work. I mainly use the Ninja 2 for Green Screen and setup shots and if you are trying to run around an event like a Wedding or Auto event you will more than likely break something somehow. To me the internal codec is perfect for what I do and is a step above the 5D MKIII and I bought the C100 because you pretty much have everything built in and dont have to lug around ND's, External Audio Recorder, External Monitor and memory cards. Many people complain about the EVF being too small but I have yet to complain about it and has helped alot when Im shooting in the sun.
__________________
www.nickelsvision.com
Canon C100, Canon 5D MK iii, Canon 5D MK ii (Magic Lantern), Panasonic GF1 (Hacked)
Peter Chaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2013, 07:21 AM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

thanks for the responses. I feel like waiting this out a bit. maybe C200 will suit my needs.
Barry Hunt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2013, 11:34 AM   #13
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 223
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Hunt View Post
thanks for the responses. I feel like waiting this out a bit. maybe C200 will suit my needs.
What is a C200, is it a future model?
Andy Solaini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2013, 01:44 PM   #14
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 49
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Solaini View Post
What is a C200, is it a future model?
Its all rumors and speculation right now who know's what Canon is really up to.
__________________
www.nickelsvision.com
Canon C100, Canon 5D MK iii, Canon 5D MK ii (Magic Lantern), Panasonic GF1 (Hacked)
Peter Chaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2013, 03:09 PM   #15
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 223
Re: c100 for run and gun ninja ; practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Chaney View Post
Its all rumors and speculation right now who know's what Canon is really up to.
Yeah they seem to be a bit unpredictable with what they have coming up. I actually just wish I knew if the UK is getting the rebate on the C300 or not as it would almost certainly make my decision one way or the other.
Andy Solaini is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:51 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network