C100 very noisy
 

I really like the C100 but I have had to return it to the shop as it's just not lived up to what I was expecting.

With ISOs above 1600 but especially above 4000 I found the image very noisy on any out of focus part and/or uniform colour and texture parts like plain walls.

I tested in in my house in my office room with a normal house room light bulb and the glow from my computer, in other words not really that dark, and the image at f4 and 4000 ISO was very noisy.

Contrast this to when I was in Spain using my 1Dx I shot at 10,000 ISO in a tourist train thing with very dim carriage lights from the 1920s which was the old light due to it being night outside and the footage has almost no noise at all.

Now that difference just doesn't stack up with what I have read about how good the C100 is at high ISO/low light shooting. In fact even in the daytime testing in my garden I can't see any noticeably difference in the footage compared to that off my XF300 and XF100. Again that goes against what a lot of people have been saying about how the C100 footage is in another league to the XF cameras.

Anyone else had noise problems with the C100?

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Can you post a sample, Andy?

Ben.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Yes. With the WDR custom preset. I don't use it anymore for that reason.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Well, no. For me. And you can modify WDR with more noise reduction if you wish... :-)

Two broad categories here: 1) noise helps prevent other compression artifacts (diffusion dither, anyone?) and 2) Noise reduction is available either in-camera or in-post.

I've worked with 'sort of' noisy cameras like the HD100 from JVC - never again - and with more up-to-date models like the EX1, with which I have developed a grudging respect that's followed by an absolute faith.

The FS100 and FS700 are less noisy at first glance, but their images lacks the detail and bite I want.

The C100 has noise - you can remove it in-camera with a picture profile, or you can leave it there and have it removed when it gets too much by using Neat Video, which is far too good for what it purports to be.

Noise is like sharpening - it's the kind of thing that's better handled in post, but... YE GODS, it takes it's own freekin' time. However, the noise, or boil, in the image is something that helps the final result. I fear that, if it were taken away, we'd get plastic 'over-clean' results without character or definition.

So, I'll continue to roll with it.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

I had a camera XF100 before and I have a C100 camera now. When I properly set up a CP profile on the C100 and when I can use several glass from really wide to really long now I get pictures which are really better then before with XF100, they are very detailed and I can use small DOF and much much better glass. But at lowlight with f1.4 glass (F2) it is really like a miracle, where was a darkness before there is nice color and sharp picture with small level of noise now.

So I really don't understand how can you speak about any noticeably difference between footages from C100 vs XF100, really not.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Not sure how close you're sitting to your screen, probably too close. the C cameras at 12800 look far better than my 5d at 3200, and my EX1

maybe you should define what type of noise you're looking for. there's nasty noise, and theres not nasty noise. non nasty noise is more like grain, more natural, therefore more pleasing to look at. perhaps you see all noise as bad?

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Two very quick examples straight out of camera. They are very badly done clips but I think they show what I mean about the noise.

https://www.yousendit.com/download/W...TXZCMTdtcXRVag

https://www.yousendit.com/download/W...TXZUWURyZHNUQw

Re: C100 very noisy
 

my guess is you're noticing noise in the darker areas, shoot clog which will bring those up a bit so they should be less noisy to begin with, and since they'll presumably be brought back down when you grade, it'll reduce it even more. you're not shooting at 17mbps are you?

and again, it's not that it's supposed to be sterile clean, it's that the grain is much more refined than we're used to getting, so it isn't as nasty as typical digital noise

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Hi Andy.

I had a quick look at the first clip in QuickTime player - I can see a bit of chrominance noise, but nothing more than I'd expect.

The shot is low light, low contrast throughout - so your eye is going to be drawn more to the noise/grain.

Ben.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

This was just a quick test but ISO 10,000 on the 1Dx looks much nicer than 4000 on the C100 in my opinion.

https://www.yousendit.com/download/W...NHZlaFRyZHNUQw

Re: C100 very noisy
 

well, unless i'm mistaken, the 1dx does in camera noise reduction

Re: C100 very noisy
 

So after further testing and research I have pretty much discounted the 1Dx due to it's limitations in audio, no focus peaking, no NDs and general not so good ergonomics.

So that leaves me with my current XF300 and XF100. For part of what I do they are excellent and essential with their constant AF and big zoom range. The real downside is their pretty poor low light image. What would be idea would be an XF300 mkII with much better high gain noise control but I haven't heard any rumours about an XF300 replacement.

So do I add a C300 to my XF camera for low light use? Nearly £11K seems like an awful lot of cash to put down to solve low light shooting problems. Has anyone got any footage that compares the XF300 and C300 because from my very limited testing before I sent the C100 back I couldn't really tell the XF300 and C100 footage apart in anything other than low light.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Did you check out Neat Video in your quest for noise free images?

I'm a late convert, but it's really helped on a couple of shoots where the noise was beginning to interfere with the web compression. By running Neat Video on the problem clips, things helped a lot.

BTW, I wasn't aware that there was a sensitivity difference between the C300 and the C100?

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Matt Neat Video is a great tool and it certainly helps quite a bit with the noise. The issue I have with it is it takes ages and ages to render on my (reasonably powerful) computer and on my macbook forget it.

Red Giant Denoiser does a similarly good job but takes even longer to render.

Running Neat Video on both XF300 clips and those from the C100 I am beginning to see the extra sharpness of the C100 images.

I believe the C100 and C300 are the same sensitivity. It's the other little things that I didn't like about it that the C300 overcomes.


[edit] the place I bought the C100 from will refund me but minus a 10% restock fee which is fair enough. They said they will waive the fee if I was to order a C300 but they need to know fairly quickly one way or the other. I can see the advantages of the C300 but it's a hell of a lot of money...

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Hi Andy.

What advantages do you see the C300 bringing?

Ben.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Do you mean compared to the XF300 Ben? I would say better low light images, slightly better over all picture quality (but I'm not 100% sure on this one), creative DOF possibilities. My hesitation is that nearly £11K is a lot to spend for the extra it gives over the XF300. Diminishing returns I guess.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Here's a clip from a night after a rain at ISO 80k and I think Wide DG. I was trying to film the fireflies...that really didn't work out, but I was stuck on f4. I'll try this later w/ a 50mm 1.2 and see if it's better. Rain, lightning and sound added. I am impressed with where there's actually a light source, though overall this is kinda crappy. Of course I spit it out h.264 and then vimeo had it's way with it.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

The codec on the c100 might be playing a part in your noise issue. You could try renting a Ninja Blade or similar and output uncompressed for comparison. I do record to AVCHD codec, but I have been adjusting the Wide DR and (believe it or not) the Standard EOS profiles so they will need less grading in post. For the wide DR, I increased the darks a bit and did set NR to 1.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

That is not good advice. The NR feature in the picture profile does work for the HDMI out, but it's not nearly as aggressive as it is for AVCHD, mostly because, at 24Mbps, the codec isn't suited or compressing noise. Adding a Ninja Blade will increase the perceptible level of noise over AVCHD, because it will be uncompressed 8-bit 4:2:2. and thus doesn't need to make sure the codec isn't wasting time trying to encode noise.

I am in the middle of a project combining Canon H.264 from their first gen DSLRs, GH2-4, Red Epic, and C100/300 footage, and the last is, by far, the cleanest out of the box.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

I have not tried recording to a Ninja on our c100 yet, but I have read that If you shoot with the Ninja2 recorder, you can use canon-log gamma with NR2 or NR4 for that profile at least. Other processing will not get sent uncompressed over HDMI, but I would be interested to see some high ISO comparisons.
At any rate, I only see rave reviews about the c100's low light performance, so the first thing I would try is upping the NR from 0 or increasing the black levels of the profile a bit... Current is always running through every pixel on a sensor, so there is no such thing as no noise I suppose...

Re: C100 very noisy
 

BTW, I re-shot with a 50mm 1.2 and am blown away. Here's a quick shot with the moon in it - and it's not really even the reason I'm still stunned at how clean this is, but wanted to follow up and say that shooting in the dark is shooting in the dark. I probably should have used the moonlight for a shot. Maybe I'll shoot something tonight using just moonlight.


With one light in my living room, I shot the best picture I've ever had from a "video" camera...(not the most amazing shot, just in terms of clean, low light imaging!)


Pretty excited, going forward!

Re: C100 very noisy
 

I started a thread here when I got my C300 a couple of years ago as I was shocked at how much chroma noise there was when I shot at high ISO especially as everyone had been saying how awesome low light performance was with the C300. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-ci...-expected.html

The conclusion I came to after more experience of using the camera was that there was a requirement for lots of tweaking of picture style to optimise for low light but crucially as with the 5D2/3 & I imagine with the C100 too that it doesn't matter too much within reason how high you crank up the ISO provided that the image is well exposed as if you underexpose then push it in post it will look like crap & you would be far better using a higher ISO in the first place.

BTW I previously owned an XF105 & an XF305. The image out if the C300 was easily better than either XF. The resolution & dynamic range was streets ahead. In fact the C300 image was so good that eventually I sold it as I found if impossible to match with the 5D2/3s that I was also using to shoot weddings. I carried on using an XF105 as while the low light performance wasn't as good the lesser resolution & DR meant that it was easier to match with DSLR footage. The C100 image is every bit as good as that of the C300.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

I remember the thread, Nigel. Can you suggest some picture profile settings that you now use in low light? There seems to be blue chroma noise all over the place on the Wide DR-based profiles at high ISO's.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Sorry Bob but as I said I sold the C300 some time ago & can't recall the settings that I used. I suggest downloading & trying out some of the profiles that other users have come up with then tweak to your taste.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

I really liked this DP's take on noise and color profiles for the C100.
Exploring Canon C100 Color Profiles

I've been trying his natural Wide DR profile and it looks good, outdoor footage did not need grading unless you need a "look"...

I took some footage with this custom profile at the worst time of day - 2pm hazy summer light on our college campus, stark shadows and sunlight glare... you name it. The C100 is a great job handling these conditions I think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E9u...ature=youtu.be


Summary:

At close examination, the picture is noisy unless you apply some Noise Reduction to it, even at its native 850 ISO. I’ve found anything less than level 5 to be acceptable without sacrificing any noticeable detail. If you’re at a higher ISO like 3200 you might want to set Noise Reduction to 7.

C-Log/Cinema mode seems to generally be a bad idea. It looks awesome in camera because you see a lot more latitude, however when adding contrast in post you’ll see that the digital artifacting caused by the low bit rate is very pronounced. If you want it to look all flat and low contrast as it is, then it’s awesome, but if you’re planning on adding contrast back, don’t use it.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

I'm game; I'm going to try this setting out. I really like the color chip chart for Smooth...

Re: C100 very noisy
 

While is some ways Gary is correct here, I'm going to generally disagree that using the ninja to moderate the noise off the C100 is a bad idea. My experience with the c300 and the samurai is that the noise profile of the camera to the recorder versus the internal codec is substantially "finer", more random, and much more grain like. The compression in the C300 50 mBit codec causes jpeg like artifacts (and macroblocking in low contrast shadow areas). The c100, depending on the noise reduction setting, either amplifies these artifacts or smears the detail. I'd highly recommend going to a recorder, and then using noise reduction like neat video in post when you need it. The Canon Cinema cameras retain a remarkable amount of detail and dynamic range when handled this way.

Here's a film I shot a few years ago, sections at beginning and end where model is lit only by the moon. Iso 10k-20k. Shot to internal codec on the c300.
and then with a denoise pass.
To minimize the noise on the c100, simply turn the sharpening as low as possible. If that's still too noisy for you, you've probably fallen in love with noise reduction in other cameras, and you can't be helped :-).

Increasing noise reduction on the C100 will probably make you happier, but will result in an image with less detail, and in my opinion, less integrity. Most professional colorists add noise to the final "print" for theatrical distribution.

Canon's c-camera's have an extraordinary noise profile. To be able to get this look out of a camera costing $5k is remarkable. There isn't a frame of Kodak or Fuji Film stock in existence that has lower "noise" than these cameras.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Very nice, Barry. Do you remember what picture profile you were using?

Re: C100 very noisy
 

And this is the issue with that solution:

So clearly the solution that is being looked for does not involve a post-production denoising, which is legitimate. Having dealt with underexposed footage in post, sometimes it is not cost-effective to spend days (yes, days) removing noise.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Gary--- let me put it this way then. Shooting to the ninja/samurai produces a cleaner, less noticeable noise profile regardless of the camera NR setting than shooting to the internal codec. Relying on the compression algorithm to smooth noise is not something I'd ever recommend, as it produces artifacts and eliminates detail.

Bob -- I don't remember exactly what I did... Other than I sat in a dark room, and cycled throu the presets until I found the one I liked(I think it was cinema 1), then I lowered sharpening all the way and turned up the coring a tad... Other than that it was a pretty straight preset profile.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

And the image being nosier is a common complaint by people who purchased a Ninja.

Re: C100 very noisy
 

Try as I may, Gary, I'm unable to find a consensus (or nary a peep) of discussion that the Ninja when used with the C100 produces a noisier result.

What I did find was Paul Joy's nice review of this combination, and the side by side comparisons he posted of AVCHD vs the Ninja. In all 4 comparison shots there is a negligible difference between the images in terms of noise, and in almost all the shots there is a slight advantage to the Ninja version in the relative smoothness of the grain pattern. I'll exit this discussion by saying that this matches up exactly with what I see on my C300 and the samurai blade.

Atomos Ninja 2 review with Canon C100 | Paul Joy – Freelance Filmmaker

Barry

Re: C100 very noisy
 

FYI Canon is releasing/released the xf200 which should improve the low light capabilities of the xf line of cameras.

Check it out:
canon xf200 | B&H Photo Video