C100 strobing at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems

Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems
For all Canon Cinema EOS models: C700 / C300 Mk. II / C200 / C100 Mk II and EF / PL lenses.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 21st, 2015, 05:31 AM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: NY, NY USA
Posts: 466
C100 strobing

Hi,

I am trying to figure out how to avoid strobing effect with my C100. Or maybe it's called flickering. I use 24p frame rate. If I'm following someone for example, or panning how do I make the flickering go away. I probably need a higher frame rate?
Kathy Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2015, 07:08 AM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: NJ/NYC
Posts: 560
Re: C100 strobing

Faster frame rate is the only way to mitigate strobing, which is just a basic affect of movement on lower fps/higher movement.

check this out Panning Best Practices
__________________
C100 - GH4 - NYC Shooter
www.DarrenLevine.com
Darren Levine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2015, 07:58 AM   #3
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,267
Re: C100 strobing

Darren's link is very useful. Strobing is definitely a part of the 24 frame experience. There is a reason TV went to 30 frames a second even though we all love the film look. What shutter rate are you using? The faster it is the more stutter you will see. I have a producer who wants motion on as many shots as possible so we use 29.97 for her projects as she likes fast moves which strobe too much at 24. The way you shoot also makes a difference. Panning seems to create more issues than moving forward or back. Also some displays have more trouble with 24 frame rate than others so you may be seeing a playback issue as well.
Daniel Epstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2015, 08:58 AM   #4
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: NY, NY USA
Posts: 466
Re: C100 strobing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Levine View Post
Faster frame rate is the only way to mitigate strobing, which is just a basic affect of movement on lower fps/higher movement.

check this out Panning Best Practices
This is very helpful but it only talks about panning, I am experiencing this when turning the camera using glidecam for example. I suppose that would do the same thing
Kathy Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2015, 03:18 PM   #5
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,704
Re: C100 strobing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy Smith View Post
I suppose that would do the same thing
It's exactly the same even if the move looks a little difference. This applies to all motion.
Gary Huff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2015, 05:45 PM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Philadelphia, pa
Posts: 705
Re: C100 strobing

Kathy, I too shoot with the C100. I typically use a shutter speed of 48 and never have an issue. You may see some strobing on the Lcd or your playback monitor, but do you actually see it in your final rendered video?
Kevin Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22nd, 2015, 04:16 AM   #7
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: NY, NY USA
Posts: 466
Re: C100 strobing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Lewis View Post
Kathy, I too shoot with the C100. I typically use a shutter speed of 48 and never have an issue. You may see some strobing on the Lcd or your playback monitor, but do you actually see it in your final rendered video?
yes, I see it on the actual video. I will make a clip to show later today
Kathy Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2015, 03:38 PM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: NY, NY USA
Posts: 466
Re: C100 strobing

OK, I just did a test. Here is the resulting video. I am seeing some kind of flickering when or I don't know what to describe it, it's the most pronounced when looking at the etches of things. Am I moving the camera a too fast?
Kathy Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2015, 04:10 PM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Philadelphia, pa
Posts: 705
Re: C100 strobing

You are not panning to fast. To me it looks like you are using incorrect render settings or perhaps shooting 24pf and not handling it properly in post.
Kevin Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2015, 05:10 PM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: NY, NY USA
Posts: 466
Re: C100 strobing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Lewis View Post
You are not panning to fast. To me it looks like you are using incorrect render settings or perhaps shooting 24pf and not handling it properly in post.
Kevin,
What render settings should I be using? These are the settings I always use. I am importing this to FCXP. I am pretty sure I'm shooting 24p, but I'll double check tomorrow.
Kathy Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2015, 05:25 PM   #11
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,704
Re: C100 strobing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Lewis View Post
To me it looks like you are using incorrect render settings or perhaps shooting 24pf and not handling it properly in post.
If she was shooting PF24, there'd be interlaced lines.

Kathy, what is your shutter speed? 180 degrees or 1/48 if you are shooting 24p?

Frankly, to me it looks like you're moving the camera too fast.
Gary Huff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2015, 09:35 PM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Philadelphia, pa
Posts: 705
Re: C100 strobing

The first time I watched in SD now that I re-watched in HD, it looks much better. Make sure that if you are shooting 24p that your shutter is set to 48. When you export, make sure that you are not exporting as anything other than 24p. If you are shooting PF24, make sure that your NLE is not picking it up as interlaced footage. It also looks like you are using the auto focus. If you are, make sure you try re-shooting with it off. Its hard to gauge properly with things going in and out of focus. When I shoot 24p with my c100 panning to quickly is not an issue. I don't change the way I pan just because i'm shooting 24p. Now that being said, you cant go whipping the camera around but you should certainly be able to follow a moving object without an issue provided that you are using the correct shutter speed. You can also try resetting your camera to the factory defaults in case you inadvertantly changed a setting.
Kevin Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2015, 10:11 PM   #13
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,704
Re: C100 strobing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Lewis View Post
Make sure that if you are shooting 24p that your shutter is set to 48.
Actually, just set it to 180 degrees. You can do that on the C100 and it ensures that your shutter speed is always correct no matter the frame rate. Only change it for those instances with lighting that strobes in the frame.

Quote:
When you export, make sure that you are not exporting as anything other than 24p.
Unless you are shooting 30p or 60i. Just make sure your export matches your footage.

Quote:
If you are shooting PF24
Neve, ever, ever shoot PF24.

Quote:
When I shoot 24p with my c100 panning to quickly is not an issue. I don't change the way I pan just because i'm shooting 24p.
If that's the case, then judder simply doesn't bother you. You should always adjust the speed of your camera moves depending on your frame rate (60i can handle a lot, then 30p, and 24p is dead last). For proper 24p panning, the rule of thumb is that it should take 7 seconds to pan an entire frame's worth of information (so anything on one edge of the frame should take 7 seconds in your pan to reach the other side). Doing it faster than that causes judder, and you either live with it, pan slower, or use a faster frame rate.
Gary Huff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2015, 11:56 PM   #14
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Camas, WA, USA
Posts: 5,513
Re: C100 strobing

That's awesome, Gary, I just responded to you in another thread and quoted the 7 second guideline, then I read your post here quoting the same. :)

For completeness for the other readers, when whip panning or tracking a subject, one can go faster. It's those pans on static backgrounds that really show the judder. Of course, very fast whip pans will show skew due to rolling shutter, but that's another topic.

FWIW, I did a pan of almost exactly 7 seconds across a building recently and I still noticed the judder. One reason is that I accelerated at the start and decelerated at the end, meaning that the speed mid-pan would have been a bit too high. But also, it's not like judder occurs at 8 seconds and is invisible at 6. It's more of a soft threshold. There's still judder at 6 seconds, but most audience members won't notice it. Once you know to look for it, you can't not notice it...
__________________
Jon Fairhurst
Jon Fairhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2015, 07:43 AM   #15
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,704
Re: C100 strobing

Most people simply won't notice, so I wouldn't sweat judder too much, just something to be aware of.

For the best example of this that I have seen recently, check out the graveyard scene in The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly when Tuco is running through it. He is running full tilt, the camera is locked on him and panning with him, and the background becomes this crazy ugly blur, almost like something out of 2001.
Gary Huff is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:04 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network