4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film) at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems

Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems
For all Canon Cinema EOS models: C700 / C300 Mk. II / C200 / C100 Mk II and EF / PL lenses.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 2nd, 2015, 09:59 AM   #1
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

Canon has uploaded a 4k version of the demo short they produced for NAB last month. While no amount of resolution can make up for ham-fisted acting and occasionally questionable lighting, I think the much punished color grade gets a little more respect in this version. Still odd for a camera demo to tweak the vast majority of skintones into a purple grey pallette (from the BTS video we can see that this is indeed the grade, not something the camera is doing), but at least when viewing at a more camera friendly resolution, the neutral colors aren't being overtaken by youtube compression as much, and you can see what they were trying to do. I think it actually looks a little better on youtube than it did in the projection at NAB.

__________________
Barry
http://www.barrygoyette.com
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2015, 12:11 PM   #2
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Camas, WA, USA
Posts: 5,513
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

I think the "questionable lighting" was on purpose. They shot this with extreme dynamics and color to create an HDR, wide color gamut version that they demonstrated on their prototype HDR BT.2020 monitor in a back (but not exclusive) room. In fact, the first version of the HDR cut was too colorful. They re-graded it in the booth just before the show opened. (They wanted to focus on the HDR aspect of the system, rather than the extreme colors of the prototype monitor; hence the re-grade. The colors were still quite vivid!)
__________________
Jon Fairhurst
Jon Fairhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2015, 09:24 PM   #3
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

I think by questionable lighting I meant just stylistically. It was obvious they were trying to show off dynamic range, but frankly in the theatre, it just looked a little forced and over lit..more early '00s TV than cinema. You got the distinct impression in the theatre that they tried to do too much too quickly (probably the case). And there were some surprisingly ugly highlights on a couple of shots that I'd have simply edited around given that this film was designed to show off the dynamic range of the camera. They were obviously mistakes, or bad grading choices. I think laforet did more with the C300 demo film (given it's limitations) than this film did with the new camera....but I don't really know the circumstances behind either.

I'm bummed that I never got to see it on the protoype monitor (one of the canon guys quickly pointed me back there, but didn't really say what was going on). I do think that the 4k stream generally looks better than what I saw in the theatre. It would be great to see some ungraded footage to see what was there and what wasn't.

I'm very excited about this camera (obviously :-), but I'm curious as to why the rest of the internet doesn't seem to be aroused like it was for the C300 launch. Maybe it doesn't matter, as the internet, (including this cinemaeos topic group, based on the activity on C300 vs C100 threads), only seems interested in sub-$6k cameras, which this camera was never going to be. Is it just the general dearth of similarly spec'd cameras, or is it a backfire of canon's pricing strategy? I guess time will tell.
__________________
Barry
http://www.barrygoyette.com
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2015, 11:44 PM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Camas, WA, USA
Posts: 5,513
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

Too bad you missed the HDR demo. The highlights looked amazing. I had initially wondered if HDR would look more like video than film, but I don't think that's the case. It's a new look, but it works well, given that the highlights remain so linear and natural. It doesn't have the harshness that we get with video. On the other hand, if one tries to smoosh the aggressive highlights into a 100 nit grade while on a tight schedule, it can easily give that harsh highlight video look.

The outdoor scenes with the car had great aggressive highlights. I think the colors were still too strong, but that can be a matter of taste. (Recent studies have shown that big saturation differences often vary by taste, but for small differences, most all people like the higher saturation. FWIW, taste for high saturation varies by age and culture, but not by gender.)

The indoor shots were the most impressive. They could shoot from a dark indoor scene out an open door to bright sunlight and grade it to have good detail inside and out. The online video simply doesn't compare.

Overall, HDR can save money in lighting. Normally, we have to spend a lot to make things flat. With HDR, we can light the darks less and skip the NDs on bright windows.

Howard Lukk reported on his experience with Emma and found the "less light needed" thing to hold true. The ASC: Okada Tests HDRI with Emma - Parallax View There was one scene, however, where everything looked good, except they had under-lit a face near a bright source light. We still need to light faces and objects of interest to attract the eye.

Overall, I'm surprised that HDR isn't a bigger discussion topic. People think that UltraHD Blu-ray is all about 4K. It's really about HDR, if you ask me. Once released, it will turn heads.
__________________
Jon Fairhurst
Jon Fairhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 11:30 AM   #5
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

I think it's unfortunate that they've labeled the new technology HDR...when I first saw the canon press release about it at NAB...I immediately thought it was some scheme like still photography's HDR technique, which we all know is garbage 99% of the time. I hope at some point they re-badge it into something video specific.

And while I agree that it's probably a bigger deal than 4k, it really requires a new monitor in every household before we see it broadly adapted...unless the plan is to broadcast dual streams of 4k, one for 2020 and one for 709. (perhaps it's already there in the standard, but it seems like older sets would have a hard time converting 2020 down to 709.) Is it part of the new blu-ray spec? Who knows when or if we'll see that adopted. And of course, until we start seeing panel based theatrical systems or some crazy new projection technology, this really isnt appropriate for movie theatres.

To me this one sounds like something we'll mostly see in trade shows, custom home theatre showrooms (and their movie-producer/doctor/dot-com clients living rooms) and of course, nerdy DPs editing bays...at least in the relatively foreseeable future, but exciting none the less.
__________________
Barry
http://www.barrygoyette.com
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 12:24 PM   #6
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Camas, WA, USA
Posts: 5,513
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

In the Blu-ray spec, the disc can (and likely will) include both grades, HDR and SDR. HDMI 2.0a can detect if the display can handle HDR so the player can deliver the correct stream.

I asked a colorist at Dolby if they just matched mid-gray and crunched the SDR more than HDR and he said that was their initial approach. Since then, they discovered that there are new possibilities for artistic intent...

As an example, consider a campfire scene. In SDR, the director might want more or less contrast, will sacrifice detail in the flame or in the dark background, and will want more or less brightness and contrast on the faces. Maybe the feel is romantic, creepy, isolated, cold or whatever. In the HDR grade, however, the director doesn't need to sacrifice detail to the same degree - and she might want the flame to feel hot on the skin or even uncomfortable for the viewer to look at. With more latitude comes more - and different - creative possibilities. You can't get those two grades with automated tone re-mapping.

For online services, the server can negotiate with the client and deliver the appropriate grade (generated through automation or not.)

Broadcast is another issue. Simulcast of SDR and HDR would cost bandwidth. Broadcasting HDR only and tone mapping down for SDR displays in the receiver could give mixed results. There is talk of technologies that include metadata and/or enhancement layers to assist the HDR->SDR mapping. Stay tuned...

BTW, I've seen a motorcycle race on a partly cloudy day in HDR. It looked brilliant. In SDR, the sky and the track are gray, lack detail, and are dull. Operators in the truck continually adjust exposure as the riders go between sun and shade. In HDR, the operators sit back and sip coffee. The sky is blue with bright white, detailed clouds and the track is dynamic. Resolution looks higher due to larger micro contrast. (The slew rate of the transitions is higher.) Bright sparks fly from the foot pegs as highlights glint across the helmets. Given that broadcast's advantage is in live sports, HDR broadcast could be really attractive. It's not just a Hollywood thing. :)
__________________
Jon Fairhurst
Jon Fairhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2015, 11:23 AM   #7
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

Some nice comments ahead of CineGear from Gale Tattersall about the Mark II (and a tiny slap at Red, surprising, considering it looks like it's from a Canon press release).

DP Gale Tattersall Highlights The Canon EOS C300 Mark II At Cine*Gear -
__________________
Barry
http://www.barrygoyette.com
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8th, 2015, 04:08 PM   #8
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

Sat in on the C300 mark II seminar with Gale Tattersall and his team at Cinegear this weekend. He seemed genuinely excited about the new C300, explicitly comparing it to the Alexa ( I think his excitement is based on the Mark II's similarity to the Alexa, and his rather vocal distaste for the F65/F55 and Dragon cameras). Much of the rest of the presentation was devoted to a breakdown of a few shots from Trick Shot. I'm not sure there were any surprises there. He confirmed that they did really attempt to challenge the camera on dynamic range, but during the Q&A, described rather conventional techniques -- double scrim out the window on the mustang shot, Silk above the doorway of the bar entrance -- for controlling interior/exterior contrast on most of those shots.

They talked a little about the importance of HDR --Tattersall mentioned the new HDR prototype monitor's ability to make one uncomfortable with it's brightness, (always a salesman that Gale) -- and discussed the problems with HDR grading and downconversion to SDR, generally agreeing that widespread distribution of HDR is an unknown right now. Given that, the new C300 (and footage from it today) is essentially future proofed (I guess if you choose to shoot in Canon's Cinema Gamut versus some of the more common color spaces.) I think, as Jon said earlier, HDR is really a dramatically different way of viewing the image off these cameras...there is so much more headroom and color in both the highlights and shadow...it really looks like a different image when you view it side by side with SDR, happily it looks more lifelike and natural.

Also n the HDR front, Canon had its $18,000 4K 24" monitor set up outside with the mark ii pointing out onto the cinegear walkway. Pretty impressive brightness considering. One of the canon booth boys described it as like looking through a window. I'm not sure it was that bright...but the point wasn't lost on me. The canon PR mentions trying to duplicate the experience of being on set with this monitor, and based on this demonstration, I'd agree that they are well on their way.

That I'd ever be interested in a monitor that tips the scales at a grand above the camera I'm supposedly overpaying for in a few months (I'm looking at you FS7 Lovers) is beside the point. FWIW, Tim Smith introduced a little wiggle room into the delivery timeline of the C300MkII at the seminar --"sept-oct" is the new september).

Also sat through a couple of very nerdy presentations on esoteric anamorphic glass...one by Panavision (new lenses they created for Tarentino's new Ultra-Panavision film) and Rob Hardy talking about choosing the F65 with some "weird" Joe Dunton glass for Ex Machina. Can't wait to try a set of crystal express primes on a PL mount mark II come SeptOct. :-)
__________________
Barry
http://www.barrygoyette.com

Last edited by Barry Goyette; June 9th, 2015 at 10:33 AM. Reason: grammar, clarity
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9th, 2015, 03:32 PM   #9
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Camas, WA, USA
Posts: 5,513
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

If the C300 MkII can deliver a cinematic look as does an Alexa, have great dynamic range, and deliver true 4K resolution, it will become an "it" camera. FWIW, most of the HDR video demos I've seen were shot on the Alexa, but it's not 4K. Red and Sony have different looks. Canon's look won't exactly match the Alexa, but that's not the point. The images from the C300 MkII look organic, and that's what matters.

I won't be in the market due to price/budget, but once available, it will probably become my preferred rental - except when I need faster frame rates. The F700 has been my rental choice when fast frame rates trump look.
__________________
Jon Fairhurst
Jon Fairhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25th, 2015, 10:59 AM   #10
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

Well I guess I was wrong (and I usually am) about half of it (the "adoption time" part, not the "everybody needs a new monitor" part). :-)

Amazon Grabs Key Tech Advantage Over Netflix - Forbes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Goyette View Post

And while I agree that it (hdr) is probably a bigger deal than 4k, it really requires a new monitor in every household before we see it broadly adapted...unless the plan is to broadcast dual streams of 4k, one for 2020 and one for 709. (perhaps it's already there in the standard, but it seems like older sets would have a hard time converting 2020 down to 709.) Is it part of the new blu-ray spec? Who knows when or if we'll see that adopted. And of course, until we start seeing panel based theatrical systems or some crazy new projection technology, this really isnt appropriate for movie theatres.

To me this one sounds like something we'll mostly see in trade shows, custom home theatre showrooms (and their movie-producer/doctor/dot-com clients living rooms) and of course, nerdy DPs editing bays...at least in the relatively foreseeable future, but exciting none the less.
__________________
Barry
http://www.barrygoyette.com
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25th, 2015, 11:17 AM   #11
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,704
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

For me personally, I will not purchase a 4K television/monitor unless it is Rec.2020 complaint.
Gary Huff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25th, 2015, 04:34 PM   #12
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
Re: 4k version of Trick Shot (C300 Mark ii Demo film)

Lucky for you, November's just a heartbeat away....

Canon U.S.A. : About Canon
__________________
Barry
http://www.barrygoyette.com
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:12 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network