EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems

Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems
For all Canon Cinema EOS models: C700 / C300 Mk. II / C200 / C100 Mk II and EF / PL lenses.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 16th, 2016, 03:55 AM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Francisco, California
Posts: 156
EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

I have experienced some issues with the electronic contacts with this combo, written about here: Interesting, my cine zoom started talking to the camera today

I have since had the camera and lens into Canon for diagnosis, mainly because the camera began having problems with my L series lenses... basically I had an intermittent problem with the iris motor acting strange and closing the iris down uncontrolled.

Canon service has examined the 17-120mm lens and found it to be 100% ok. The Mark II camera is where the problem lies, which I expected. The mount developed a little too much play, just enough to create some issue with the electronics. I am guessing a poor contact between lens and pins in the mount. I think this occurred during a day of handheld work where the camera lens would have been subjected to external force of holding the lens grip and camera body resting on shoulder. Of course, though... that is the purpose of the Zacuto rig... to be able to to take this camera combo for shoulder mount/handheld use and lock everything down so that the lens doesn't flex at the camera body.

Canon is replacing the mount free of charge, which is logical since camera is under warranty (purchased Dec 2015). They also suggested installing a locking EF mount. I like that idea until they mentioned the cost, which is $400 labor and $1900 for the part. Canon also says they won't pay for a second repair, that I would be on the hook for further problems. I am going to move forward and put a locking mount on there, because this problem is going to happen again with a standard EF mount.

I am suggesting to them that Zacuto and/or Canon should be responsible for this upgrade. The camera is new, been on one shoot that was handheld, always on the specially designed Zacuto rig. It's my $50k baby right now, and I have been very gentle with it... so I bristle at the suggestion that I am responsible for the problem. I think the EF mount is too weak to handle a big lens and I don't think the Zacuto rig's support is solid enough to mitigate the stress on the EF mount.

Canon has flat-out said no to paying for a locking EF mount kit. They suggested I contact Zacuto and I have not approached Zacuto yet as I am overseas working this week (ironically on my original C300 which is as reliable as ever and scoffs at rough handling). I have talked to the company that sold me the kit and they are working it from their side, too. Unfortunately, I am anticipating a situation where nobody wants to accept responsibility for this problem.

I think this combo of lens in the PL mount version is likely strong enough to take handheld work. I am suspicious of the camera combo's abilities in the EF mount. I am thinking the locking EF mount is the way to go forward, basically making the camera as solid as a PL version.

Has anyone else had similar problems with play, slop, or other issues with heavy lenses and EF mounts? I would be curious to know if this is something that others are going through. The camera/lens/rig combo is so new and unique that I feel like maybe there aren't too many out there.

Does anyone know if there is an aftermarket manufacturer of a less expensive Locking EF mount?
Scott Stoneback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2016, 12:25 PM   #2
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

I have noticed several occasions of the camera not recognizing a lens, both cinema primes and EF lenses. Its always been resolved by shutting the camera down, and re-connecting the lens...sometimes more than once. The heaviest lens I've had on it has been a cinema prime, but I'm not noticing any slop.
__________________
Barry
http://www.barrygoyette.com
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2016, 12:21 AM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Horsham / United Kingdom
Posts: 324
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

From the images I've seen the rig there is an additional supporting spur from the front of the recoil up to a collar that goes around the lens. This is obviously to provide the support to prevent the problem you have encountered and it would appear that this is not sufficient considering the weight of the lens.

Maybe Zacuto will need to revise the design of this part of the rig or that the locking EF mount kit is provided as part of the package.

Good luck with trying to get either party to stump up the cost of the locking EF mount kit.
Mark Dobson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2016, 11:35 AM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,259
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

I'm unlikely to be using this combo, ever. My teaching practice and market for freelance are different.

But, wow. We're talking Canon's premium gear and a co-marketing agreement with the premium rigger. It's really unbelievable that you've received the message that they're not going to stand behind their products.

If there's a happy ending, and I hope there will be, these companies make great gear and have good reputations... it will likely come from the issue being escalated in Canon USA to management and executive leadership, who should realize that their market perceptions in mid + range cinematography are going to take a thrashing over this.

That a customer such as you does everything right, to find that there's such a big gap between product marketing, product engineering, and product support is very difficult to understand.

If you haven't asked, repeatedly, "Can you escalate this issue...?", and, maybe, if still no joy, try to get to product marketing...
__________________
30 years of pro media production. Vegas user since 1.0. Webcaster since 1997. Freelancer since 2000. College instructor since 2001.
Seth Bloombaum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2016, 10:06 AM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Delhi, India
Posts: 485
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

Clearly the rig is at fault. The purpose of a rig is to get the lens solidly aligned and it shouldn't flex. In your case, there is definitely flex and the entire weight of the lens and rig pulls down the mount.

I have been using the original C300 EF since 2012 with heavy telephoto lenses (5.6kg). I often put the lens on tripod and attach the camera on the lens unsupported. The weight of the camera with LCD, grip and microphone is fine and doesn't cause problems. Same with C300 Mark II. The only time I had a lens contact problem was with a Canon 2xII TC which had fallen down from my assistant's hands.

I suspect Zacuto will not be too happy to hear blame on their rig. They will point at the EF mount. No mount will work fine when such a long and heavy lens is not fixed well. The principles of physics (check for cantilever principle) cant be wrong. A short heavy lens would be fine. But long and heavy lens will be a bit too much if there is flex.
__________________
Wild Tiger Productions
http://www.indiawilds.com/about.htm
Sabyasachi Patra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2016, 01:21 AM   #6
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Francisco, California
Posts: 156
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

I just got the camera back from Canon yesterday and I had the locking ring installed for the low low price of $2300!!! Ouch.

The locking mount is solid, they must be considering this as the way to go in the future. I'm still going to wait and see what Canon and Zacuto have to say... but this setup has a few gremlins.

I, too, am surprised that the flagship Cinema EOS camera and lens combo is not fully supported by Canon. I used the rig one day handheld and the mount problem surfaced immediately. To suggest that there is no problem seems crazy to me. I had to have the locking EF mount installed... how can I trust the regular EF mount not to fail repeatedly given the intended use of the camera?
Scott Stoneback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2016, 11:28 AM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,259
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

For readers of this thread who might not be familiar with the current promos and packages, this isn't a typical case of manufacturers saying "it's the other guy". This is a package being marketed by Canon, which includes the Zacuto rig, the Canon Cine Zoom 17-120mm lens, and a C300 Mk II, and costs a little under $50k.

Here is a nice quote from Canon USA's web site:
The CINE-SERVO 17-120mm T2.95-3.9 lens provides cinematographers and broadcast operations with a compact, lightweight design (only 6.4 lbs.) using Canon optical elements, while offering outstanding performance and reliability in professional shooting environments. The EOS C300 Mark II 17-120mm Zacuto Package is ideal for news, sports, documentary, ENG, and reality show shooting.

Canon endorsed. Canon/Zacuto co-marketed. Canon will even send you a rebate on the package. But not Canon supported, per Scott's experience.
__________________
30 years of pro media production. Vegas user since 1.0. Webcaster since 1997. Freelancer since 2000. College instructor since 2001.
Seth Bloombaum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2016, 11:39 AM   #8
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Stoneback View Post
I just got the camera back from Canon yesterday and I had the locking ring installed for the low low price of $2300!!! Ouch.

The locking mount is solid, they must be considering this as the way to go in the future. I'm still going to wait and see what Canon and Zacuto have to say... but this setup has a few gremlins.

I, too, am surprised that the flagship Cinema EOS camera and lens combo is not fully supported by Canon. I used the rig one day handheld and the mount problem surfaced immediately. To suggest that there is no problem seems crazy to me. I had to have the locking EF mount installed... how can I trust the regular EF mount not to fail repeatedly given the intended use of the camera?
I think it's more than a bit disconcerting. Both that the mount failed that easily, and that the cost of the locking mount is so much. Based on your experience, They really should only sell this package WITH the locking mount.
__________________
Barry
http://www.barrygoyette.com
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2016, 02:27 PM   #9
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Francisco, California
Posts: 156
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

I'm with you, the locking EF mount should be standard equipment. It's way beefier, similar to PL mounts.

I'm mildly optimistic that this will get sorted, it's one of those things that I feel other people will experience with the camera. These heavy lenses are really maxing out the ef mount. If this camera setup is intended to replace a beta cam, as Zacuto has marketed the package... then it should be able to stand up easily to real world usage.

By the way, I think a locking EF mount or a PL version are plenty solid. It's the lighter standard EF mount that gives me pause.

Even with this setups' gremlins, I still love what they've done with the package. As long as the issues get sorted, it's still the camera setup I recommend.
Scott Stoneback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2016, 10:41 PM   #10
New Boot
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 17
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Stoneback View Post
I have experienced some issues with the electronic contacts with this combo, written about here: Interesting, my cine zoom started talking to the camera today

I have since had the camera and lens into Canon for diagnosis, mainly because the camera began having problems with my L series lenses... basically I had an intermittent problem with the iris motor acting strange and closing the iris down uncontrolled.

Canon service has examined the 17-120mm lens and found it to be 100% ok. The Mark II camera is where the problem lies, which I expected. The mount developed a little too much play, just enough to create some issue with the electronics. I am guessing a poor contact between lens and pins in the mount. I think this occurred during a day of handheld work where the camera lens would have been subjected to external force of holding the lens grip and camera body resting on shoulder. Of course, though... that is the purpose of the Zacuto rig... to be able to to take this camera combo for shoulder mount/handheld use and lock everything down so that the lens doesn't flex at the camera body.

Canon is replacing the mount free of charge, which is logical since camera is under warranty (purchased Dec 2015). They also suggested installing a locking EF mount. I like that idea until they mentioned the cost, which is $400 labor and $1900 for the part. Canon also says they won't pay for a second repair, that I would be on the hook for further problems. I am going to move forward and put a locking mount on there, because this problem is going to happen again with a standard EF mount.

I am suggesting to them that Zacuto and/or Canon should be responsible for this upgrade. The camera is new, been on one shoot that was handheld, always on the specially designed Zacuto rig. It's my $50k baby right now, and I have been very gentle with it... so I bristle at the suggestion that I am responsible for the problem. I think the EF mount is too weak to handle a big lens and I don't think the Zacuto rig's support is solid enough to mitigate the stress on the EF mount.

Canon has flat-out said no to paying for a locking EF mount kit. They suggested I contact Zacuto and I have not approached Zacuto yet as I am overseas working this week (ironically on my original C300 which is as reliable as ever and scoffs at rough handling). I have talked to the company that sold me the kit and they are working it from their side, too. Unfortunately, I am anticipating a situation where nobody wants to accept responsibility for this problem.

I think this combo of lens in the PL mount version is likely strong enough to take handheld work. I am suspicious of the camera combo's abilities in the EF mount. I am thinking the locking EF mount is the way to go forward, basically making the camera as solid as a PL version.

Has anyone else had similar problems with play, slop, or other issues with heavy lenses and EF mounts? I would be curious to know if this is something that others are going through. The camera/lens/rig combo is so new and unique that I feel like maybe there aren't too many out there.

Does anyone know if there is an aftermarket manufacturer of a less expensive Locking EF mount?
I知 sorry it痴 taken me a while to see this post.
Hmm. This is the first I致e heard about this. I値l go into our design room, build it up and test it. Jens actually designed the lens support so I値l have him and Rob test it. The cool part of the design is that the lens support is actually attached to the screw holes on the bottom of the camera to try to make the lens and camera one part. We will look into it, if we can improve it--we will--and of course everyone will get the improvement free of charge.

I actually have the C300 MK2 and the EF lens as well. Jens and I are using it for our own documentaries. The lens is over 6 pounds and the camera is the same, plus the lens is really long. We are sending ours out to get modified to be PL/EF changeable by us whenever we want. I知 not sure where we are doing this, I think Abel, but we all know that EF was never meant for this kind of stress and weight擁t痴 a photo mount and I知 not sure why we got the EF version. The EF bayonet is of course better but PL is truly meant for this type of stress especially if you are throwing this rig around a lot. Nevertheless, I知 not going to place blame on anyone. I知 going to see if we can make this stronger. My only real concern is that even the slightest amount of wiggle is going to be bad for the smart part of the EF mount.

comments can be sent by email to me directly steve@zacuto.com, I知 not so good at finding these threads.


Steve Weiss
Director/product designer, Zacuto USA
Steve Weiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 30th, 2016, 12:09 PM   #11
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Francisco, California
Posts: 156
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

Thanks for the reply Steve. I feel that the Zacuto rig is well made and the design is good but not great.

It really needs to have 15mm rod compatibility on the front end. That is a big oversight. The old 15mm adapter piece (the one I use on my standard VCT rig for the original C300) just doesn't work correctly with the Mark II and Cine lens configuration.

Also, in my experience, the standard EF mount is too weak for this combo. I am not sure whether the Zacuto lens brace can be improved or not. It feels solid but it doesn't take much wiggle for the ef mount to develop play and for the electronics to fail. I don't have experience with the PL version, perhaps the same issue applies to that one, as well.

Again, though, I had Canon put the locking EF mount on the camera... to the tune of $1800 for the part and $500 tax and labor. What choice did I have? Canon would replace the standard EF mount... but expect not to have the same issue pop up the next time I go hand-held? Seems absurd to me. It's not like I did it to have a tricked out camera... I did it so that the camera won't (hopefully) fail again on me.

Canon.... it's not fun to have a paying client wait while your brand new camera is malfunctioning. I am not feeling the love when it comes to supporting the intended use of this camera setup.
Scott Stoneback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 30th, 2016, 03:14 PM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Francisco, California
Posts: 156
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

Another thought... it's not so much the down-forces on the lens as it is the up-force. If the camera is sitting on a tripod, the lens weight is pushing downwards on the lens support. When you shoulder mount and place your hand on the lens-grip, the lens is pushing upwards... effectively pulling upwards on the lens support bracket.

The weight of the camera rig is substantial, when built up with all the counterweight and battery. It is not just 6lbs of camera but probably double that. While holding onto the camera lens-grip and moving around, that is a lot of weight behind the lens to be manipulating.

Just some thoughts on the top of my mind... the external forces on the mount are not just in one direction.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Weiss View Post
I知 sorry it痴 taken me a while to see this post.
Hmm. This is the first I致e heard about this. I値l go into our design room, build it up and test it. Jens actually designed the lens support so I値l have him and Rob test it. The cool part of the design is that the lens support is actually attached to the screw holes on the bottom of the camera to try to make the lens and camera one part. We will look into it, if we can improve it--we will--and of course everyone will get the improvement free of charge.

I actually have the C300 MK2 and the EF lens as well. Jens and I are using it for our own documentaries. The lens is over 6 pounds and the camera is the same, plus the lens is really long. We are sending ours out to get modified to be PL/EF changeable by us whenever we want. I知 not sure where we are doing this, I think Abel, but we all know that EF was never meant for this kind of stress and weight擁t痴 a photo mount and I知 not sure why we got the EF version. The EF bayonet is of course better but PL is truly meant for this type of stress especially if you are throwing this rig around a lot. Nevertheless, I知 not going to place blame on anyone. I知 going to see if we can make this stronger. My only real concern is that even the slightest amount of wiggle is going to be bad for the smart part of the EF mount.

comments can be sent by email to me directly steve@zacuto.com, I知 not so good at finding these threads.


Steve Weiss
Director/product designer, Zacuto USA
Scott Stoneback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2016, 08:48 AM   #13
New Boot
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 17
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

We just tested it and we have absolutely no movement. Watch video. https://www.dropbox.com/s/i1vfrura9h..._6549.m4v?dl=0
We purposely loosened the sliding red plate to show that the camera an lens move as one. What do you think? Maybe the screws that attach the hook to your lens are not tight? Do I think that a lens of this weight should only be sold with the EF Baronette mount, yes? But I've shipped Zacuto Canon ENG rig fully assembled via FedEx with the lens mounted on to both LA and NY several times with no issue. Mainly to test the stability. Do I have balls testing a $50K rig in this way, yes, but that's me.

I too purchased the EF for a very particular reason. I wanted the smart features of the EF lens. Then I had Abel do a PL conversion. If you start with a PL lens, it will never have smart capabilities but sometimes we want to use the smart features so we go EF. Sometimes at Trade shows we use PL. So an EF start is the best way to go. Anyway you cut it, this is an amazing lens.

Steve
Steve Weiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2016, 12:35 PM   #14
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Francisco, California
Posts: 156
Re: EF Lens mount problem Canon C300 Mark II, Zacuto rig, 17-120mm Lens

I had a missing hook screw that was not shipped with the package. I did not use the camera setup until the missing hook screw was shipped and installed... so that wasn't the problem. I've always babied the camera and rig... it's brand new and I put a hole in my wallet, so I am not going to beat it up. Especially that lens, which is phenomenal but crazy expensive.

Even if the the rig was loose (which it wasn't visibly) something in the system has enough play to cause my problem. Maybe it is my unlucky camera alone. Maybe they all are susceptible.

Even without the Zacuto rig, the mount should be able to stand up to moderate force of the lens weight without bending apart... i.e. the lens should be able to hold the weight of a camera. Otherwise the setup is too weak for everyday use, in my opinion.

By the way, I had shot with the cine zoom on my C300 Mark I and it was just fine on there. I used a lens support on 15mm rods... did not go handheld, lived on a tripod. It was fine.

Whatever the case, it is going to make me more mad if Canon releases later C300's with the locking EF mount (which they absolutely should spec as standard equipment) and they don't reimburse me for my $2300 locking EF upgrade.
Scott Stoneback is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:57 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network