H.265 HEVC for Canon Cinema Cameras?
I'm just picking up news on the new Canon format, H.265 HEVC which will be included with the new XF705 camcorder.
Could this codec be added to other Canon Cameras through a firmware update? Just wondering as it would make recoding 4k on my C300mk2 a whole lot easier. |
Re: H.265 HEVC for Canon Cinema Cameras?
No it can’t, encoding is done with an encoder chip, not via software.
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H.265 is harder to decode and while the compression is more sophisticated than H.264 this would only become significant for lower, destination quality, bitrates. The higher the bitrate the less compression 'finesse' becomes a factor. |
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Thank's all for that feedback.
Yes, the 400Mbps rate was the reason for hoping for a more economical and efficient 4k codec for the C300mk2. |
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"More efficient" often means "Throwing away more information."
Gradient issues with "blocky" gradients is MUCH WORSE with HEVC, to the point where I truly believe it should not be used in acquisition unless it has a specific profile made for it. Remember, HEVC only just drafted a "High Throughput" profile, and no hardware encoder ASICs support that yet. It's still just "Main 10." Current encoding profiles are for DISTRIBUTION, not ACQUISITION. There's a reason Sony waited until the AVC spec had super high levels to release XAVC. To equate the situation, to use Canon HEVC now is like using the Sanyo Xacti's H264 compression while broadcast acquisition was still 50mbps MPEG2. There's a reason why the bitrate should be high for acquisition. Event video means you should have a dedicated person swapping cards and a LOT of storage. |
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Compression algorithm technology is not static, they have improved and got better over time. Not all compression methods are equal to each other.
I for one do welcome wider usage of more advanced compression tech in cameras. |
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In HEVC, this means low motion often doesn't even get a full set of GOP temporal frames, as it's cheating with temporal information by sometimes not doing full GOP frames if the color in motion is too similar between shades. This is extremely common in highly compressed HEVC. With the move to H264 and HEVC, subtle gradations between stuff like a gradient of the sky become blocky the lower the bitrate. Because they limited the highest level possible for Main 10 and can only go to a certain "very specific" bitrate, You will notice these "banding" artifacts on a clear blue sky a LOT more than H264 if the bitrate isn't high enough. |
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I'm still waiting for a encoding ASIC that supports High Throughput HEVC before taking it seriously. That's likely 2 IBCs away, likely something like XEVC from Sony.
I'm sorry, 160Mbps if it's "Main 10" profile isn't enough. |
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It's still Main profile, not High Throughput.
High Throughput is designed for acquisition and mastering, with intra only modes and much lower compression ratios, due to the ridiculously high maximum bitrate allowed, Think of it as the new MPEG-4 SSP (HDCAM SR) for 4K and 8K and beyond. There is going to be a "HDV" "subjective quality" uproar again with the introduction of HEVC recording in the professional realm. But I guess it all doesn't matter if it's convenient. |
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I'd be curious to see what your HEVC-based project is where you had quality problems. I did a project back in February which was primarily HEVC from Filmic Pro and a GoPro Hero 6 (a promo that included rainforest hiking and rafting). I have zero of the issues you have brought up, and that's from consumer camera sources. |
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Well if you must know, my gauge of HEVC compression is from end delivery, and then translating that to how it might complicate things for acquisition.
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You have no experience with HEVC as an acquisition codec?
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I could have been watching Demo videos from consumer Demo TV sets with HEVC encoded content from LEGAL SOURCES at a Best Buy.
And just cause I don't produce that content now, doesn't invalidate all the points about how gradients are quantisized. Yet you go on the attack with wild assumptions of inexperience just cause you can. Quit it. |
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Again, stupid projections and anti-FFmpeg bias with ProRes and their stupid implementation of ProRes. You decided to count FFmpeg as unprofessional and x265 as only used by pirates.
I was not watching the UHD Blu-rays. The demos were legally installed INTO THE TVs with pre-licensed content. |
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Overall, the HEVC-based codec in the Canon XF705 will be perfectly fine to capture what the sensor is delivering. No one should be concerned, except for the obvious performance hit on older machines. |
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How can you actually prove that without asking the manufacturer directly? It could be a mezzanine format you export to the manufacturer is H.264 then they recompress it to fit on the flash memory inside the TVs in HEVC.
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HEVC is a great new codec, and it's implementation in the XF705 is very interesting. I'd like to see Canon do that for the C300 Mark III in some respects, though the XF-AVC codec performs quite well on my current editing system. That would be my only concern about it. |
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Why? Space efficiency. The TVs only have a certain amount of flash memory for the Smart functions for it's operating system, and the demo videos.
You're speaking for yourself when you don't know a thing about FFmpeg and how widespread use it is for ACTUAL BROADCAST STUFF like converting stuff to DNxHD. Resolve uses FFmpeg on Windows. Is Resolve suddenly invalid for using FFmpeg? For ProRes, yes. (DEFINITELY YES on Windows) For everything else, no. |
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IN THE PAST.
Manufacturers have to take note of device resources and find better ways to allocate it. This has dragged on for way too long. I'm done with this. |
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