DvSLRs and RED Scarlet at DVinfo.net

Jon Fairhurst · October 30th, 2009, 05:21 PM

So, the big RED October 30th announcement is being made, and it's not looking all that good for the Scarlet (3K for $3k, soccer mom, everything you need except the memory card) crowd. Prices (and features) are going up, it's more modular (which generally adds cost), and details won't be released until the end of next month.

One bright spot is that the Canon electronic lens mount (at least for EPIC/TATTOO) is real.

This leads me to this conclusion: buy a Canon, rent a Scarlet.

By purchasing a 7D/5D/1D and some lenses and other kit, we can make great stuff and hone our skills. But we're stuck with this pesky rolling shutter and aliasing. Oh well. It's good enough for the web and for many clients and applications.

But the day you want to produce that special project, rent a Scarlet/EPIC and use the kit and lenses (and rental lenses) that you have experience with. The resolution will rock. The aliasing will be gone. There will be little skew. You can shoot super slow-mo. You can grade it to death. You just won't own it, if you're in the original Scarlet target market.

The DvSLR is the Scarlet of 2009.

And who knows what we will see introduced at NAB in April? I'll be really surprised if we don't see DvSLR sensors in video bodies.

Anyway, that's how I see things unfolding. Own the DvSLR. Plan to rent a Scarlet as needed. Wait and see how the pro video market integrates DvSLR technology...

Erik Andersen · October 30th, 2009, 05:30 PM

Well put, I'd just add that Canon may be able to keep RED on the run. Given a year (or two, because "all things in life change"), will aliasing be put to rest? Will we have raw video? I'm clutching my 5D's tightly now...

Dan Brockett · October 30th, 2009, 05:34 PM

Jon:

Thanks for posting this. I stopped checking out the REDUser website almost a year ago when it became apparent to me that RED is a company for dreamers, not people who actually make their living in the here and now with video/digital cinema cameras.

I have used the RED ONE twice and overall, I did not enjoy the experience. The camera is buggy, the ergonomics and post work flow each require yet another process to learn and deal with.

So let me get this straight, RED is going to bring a 2/3" Scarlet to a market in which it is already basically superseded by DSLRs and they are going to increase the price and the delivery schedule? Umm, yeah. That really excites me. The FF Scarlet at least sounds interesting but at probably at least U.S. $10k for a fully loaded package, so what. Canon, Sony and Panasonic will have something probably that is a DSLR imager and lens mount in a video camera form factor for considerably less by then.

RED is dead or at least irrelevant to me. Maybe someday when they are shipping a real product that I am interested in, then I might give them a try. But in a world where you can buy a Panasonic HPX2700 for $19,500.00 and a Sony F350 for less, the relevance of a $28k Epic body becomes less and less IMHO. Yes, the Sony and Panasonics are video cameras and the EPIC is a digital cinema camera, but those lines are blurring quickly as well. I have seen clips from two films shot on the 2700 that looked really nice.

Our world is changing so quickly that I doubt RED will keep up. I foresee another NewTek in the making.

Dan

Jon Fairhurst · October 30th, 2009, 06:00 PM

NewTek? So, you're saying RED is Toast? ;)

Maybe they could hire Kiki Stockhammer. ;) ;) ;)

Chris Swanberg · October 30th, 2009, 06:36 PM

I have been making films with my "shooting partner" Chris Barcellos who has a 5D, for some time. We use mainly the 5D and ocasionally my Z-1 and he keeps asking when I am gettting a 7D or a DSLR.

I keep saying that I think we are on the cusp of some very rapid advances in this market. The biggest things I think that will hold it back is memory technology and transfer rates, and the actual market share to be protected by each manufacturer.

As to the latter, would Canon, for instance, make a major improvement in the DSLR and eliminate a big part of its Videocamera market in one swoop? I doubt it.

Yet, the cracks in the citadel are evident.

Will we have a full 35mm or AVS sensor camera with actual 1080 line resolution and 4:2:2 colorspace capability at $5K or under price anytime soon? I dunno... but for now prefer to sit on the sidelines and watch this exciting story develop.

Like Jon intimates... invest in good glass you can use on a go forward basis. Everything else is changing fast.

Chris Swanberg

ps. I know the 5D actual resolution is NOT fantastic on a resolution chart, but speaking for my eyes, it produces some prety damned incredible images not hitherto createable by amateur/semi-Pro and Indie filmakers using equipment available to them - and then there are the LOW light capabilities (carried even further to a place unimaginable until now by the newest Canon Pro DSLR 1D)

Perrone Ford · October 30th, 2009, 10:29 PM

I don't know why anyone is even remotely surprised by this RED announcement. I've been calling the Scarlet a $10k camera since it was announced. You just can't do it for what the initial announcement said. Unless you use it as a loss leader.

Honestly, there are a LOT of folks that would pay $10k for a 2/3 scarlet. And I think that is EXACTLY the right market for it. Target it right at the EX3, HPX300, and similar cams. The upper end amateur/low end pro guys who'd actually be able to use it, can handle the 3k post and grading, can buy the lenses, and who might want to move up in the product line on purchase or rental. The sub-$5k market is not where RED should be playing. Leave that to Canon/Nikon, and maybe Sony if they want to play there.

I would have GLADLY paid another 4k for the Scarlet over the EX1 had it been available. I've got another 3 years to wait now though. Unless I get a monster job in the mean time.

Chris Barcellos · October 30th, 2009, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Swanberg

Will we have a full 35mm or AVS sensor camera with actual 1080 line resolution and 4:2:2 colorspace capability at $5K or under price anytime soon? I dunno... but for now prefer to sit on the sidelines and watch this exciting story develop.

whew... I was worried about you getting one. As I look around my edit room here I see about four of the lenses you leant me lying around. I was beginning to worry I would have to make some other arrangements.

Mike Watson · October 31st, 2009, 12:26 AM

IMO (and perhaps only IMO) we owe RED a great debt of gratitude for thinking big and giving the shooting public what they deserve. This industry has been stuck in a rut for 30 years, and only moved on from 480i because of government mandate. Were it not for Jim Jannard and the RED team, we would still be marveling at how great it was to get HDV at 1080i for $10k. Sony's "innovation" is to re-brand beta every few years and charge $50k for the privilege.

I have shot with RED, and I have to agree with you, it is not the sunshiny smiles that the fanboys claim it to be. I expect Scarlet to be (a) more expensive than we like, (b) later than we like, and (c) less user friendly. But for a company that a mere three NAB's ago was made up of a guy who owned a sunglass company and a dream, I am damn impressed with how far they've come.

And without them, I honestly believe there would be no 5D, no EX-3, no 60p HD anything, and no looking forward to 3k, 4k, or really anything outside of 1440x1080. They scared the shit out of the industry, and we owe them our thanks.

Paul Mailath · October 31st, 2009, 05:03 AM

it's not just your opinion Mike - I think you're right. we do owe Jim a lot, he has poked the big boys in the eye and made them take notice - it's an exciting time

Liam Hall · October 31st, 2009, 05:45 AM

Pricing, specs and schedule for Scarlet are released on November 30th. They've upped the specs of Scarlet because of the success of 5D/7D. This is a good thing for everybody. More choice and competition results in better tools that are affordable for everyone. Why complain??

Brian Drysdale · October 31st, 2009, 08:21 AM

RED do need to offer something that the DSLRs can't or if they do Canon etc risk annoying their main market for these products - stills photographers by increasing the cost of purchasing a camera. If the market is mostly happy with the current HD video codec why increase costs by adding RAW for motion? After all, most stills photographers don't use RAW.

Mark Holmes · October 31st, 2009, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Watson

IMO (and perhaps only IMO) we owe RED a great debt of gratitude for thinking big and giving the shooting public what they deserve. This industry has been stuck in a rut for 30 years, and only moved on from 480i because of government mandate. Were it not for Jim Jannard and the RED team, we would still be marveling at how great it was to get HDV at 1080i for $10k. Sony's "innovation" is to re-brand beta every few years and charge $50k for the privilege.

I have shot with RED, and I have to agree with you, it is not the sunshiny smiles that the fanboys claim it to be. I expect Scarlet to be (a) more expensive than we like, (b) later than we like, and (c) less user friendly. But for a company that a mere three NAB's ago was made up of a guy who owned a sunglass company and a dream, I am damn impressed with how far they've come.

And without them, I honestly believe there would be no 5D, no EX-3, no 60p HD anything, and no looking forward to 3k, 4k, or really anything outside of 1440x1080. They scared the shit out of the industry, and we owe them our thanks.

Absolutely. Thanks to RED and Jim Jannard, camera technology has jumped what 10, 15 years? My hat is off to him and the entire RED team.

I may never buy a RED or Scarlet but I agree that cameras like the 5D and 1D MKIV wouldn't exist without RED stirring up the pot.

Daniel Browning · October 31st, 2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Holmes

I may never buy a RED or Scarlet but I agree that cameras like the 5D and 1D MKIV wouldn't exist without RED stirring up the pot.

I kindly disagree. I think DSLR manufacturers added video because photojournalists asked for it, and because it was not difficult to start saving the liveview stream to a file. My opinion is that RED didn't affect it. I think RED's future products may affect the actions of DSLR manufacturers, though.

Mike Watson · October 31st, 2009, 12:24 PM

Seems to me that every still photographer I've spoken with despises the fact that the option even exists on their camera.

Louis Maddalena · October 31st, 2009, 01:55 PM

Which makes little to no sense. Why do they mind if there is a feature on their camera that they don't use?

October 30th, 2009, 05:21 PM	#1
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 2,536	DvSLRs and RED Scarlet So, the big RED October 30th announcement is being made, and it's not looking all that good for the Scarlet (3K for $3k, soccer mom, everything you need except the memory card) crowd. Prices (and features) are going up, it's more modular (which generally adds cost), and details won't be released until the end of next month. One bright spot is that the Canon electronic lens mount (at least for EPIC/TATTOO) is real. This leads me to this conclusion: buy a Canon, rent a Scarlet. By purchasing a 7D/5D/1D and some lenses and other kit, we can make great stuff and hone our skills. But we're stuck with this pesky rolling shutter and aliasing. Oh well. It's good enough for the web and for many clients and applications. But the day you want to produce that special project, rent a Scarlet/EPIC and use the kit and lenses (and rental lenses) that you have experience with. The resolution will rock. The aliasing will be gone. There will be little skew. You can shoot super slow-mo. You can grade it to death. You just won't own it, if you're in the original Scarlet target market. The DvSLR is the Scarlet of 2009. And who knows what we will see introduced at NAB in April? I'll be really surprised if we don't see DvSLR sensors in video bodies. Anyway, that's how I see things unfolding. Own the DvSLR. Plan to rent a Scarlet as needed. Wait and see how the pro video market integrates DvSLR technology... __________________ Jon Fairhurst DIRKSNOWGLOBE.COM

October 30th, 2009, 05:30 PM	#2
Erik Andersen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 35	Well put, I'd just add that Canon may be able to keep RED on the run. Given a year (or two, because "all things in life change"), will aliasing be put to rest? Will we have raw video? I'm clutching my 5D's tightly now... __________________ Erik Andersen, wedding filmmaker www.lovestorymedia.com

October 30th, 2009, 06:00 PM	#4
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 2,536	NewTek? So, you're saying RED is Toast? ;) Maybe they could hire Kiki Stockhammer. ;) ;) ;) __________________ Jon Fairhurst DIRKSNOWGLOBE.COM

October 30th, 2009, 06:36 PM	#5
Chris Swanberg Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 820	Sideline Sitter I have been making films with my "shooting partner" Chris Barcellos who has a 5D, for some time. We use mainly the 5D and ocasionally my Z-1 and he keeps asking when I am gettting a 7D or a DSLR. I keep saying that I think we are on the cusp of some very rapid advances in this market. The biggest things I think that will hold it back is memory technology and transfer rates, and the actual market share to be protected by each manufacturer. As to the latter, would Canon, for instance, make a major improvement in the DSLR and eliminate a big part of its Videocamera market in one swoop? I doubt it. Yet, the cracks in the citadel are evident. Will we have a full 35mm or AVS sensor camera with actual 1080 line resolution and 4:2:2 colorspace capability at $5K or under price anytime soon? I dunno... but for now prefer to sit on the sidelines and watch this exciting story develop. Like Jon intimates... invest in good glass you can use on a go forward basis. Everything else is changing fast. Chris Swanberg ps. I know the 5D actual resolution is NOT fantastic on a resolution chart, but speaking for my eyes, it produces some prety damned incredible images not hitherto createable by amateur/semi-Pro and Indie filmakers using equipment available to them - and then there are the LOW light capabilities (carried even further to a place unimaginable until now by the newest Canon Pro DSLR 1D)

October 30th, 2009, 10:29 PM	#6
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 2,171	I don't know why anyone is even remotely surprised by this RED announcement. I've been calling the Scarlet a $10k camera since it was announced. You just can't do it for what the initial announcement said. Unless you use it as a loss leader. Honestly, there are a LOT of folks that would pay $10k for a 2/3 scarlet. And I think that is EXACTLY the right market for it. Target it right at the EX3, HPX300, and similar cams. The upper end amateur/low end pro guys who'd actually be able to use it, can handle the 3k post and grading, can buy the lenses, and who might want to move up in the product line on purchase or rental. The sub-$5k market is not where RED should be playing. Leave that to Canon/Nikon, and maybe Sony if they want to play there. I would have GLADLY paid another 4k for the Scarlet over the EX1 had it been available. I've got another 3 years to wait now though. Unless I get a monster job in the mean time. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Vegas Pro 9/8.1/8, RedCine, Firestore FS-4ProHD, BL-D Burner, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Moles and Lowels.

October 30th, 2009, 05:34 PM	#3
Dan Brockett Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,086	Jon: Thanks for posting this. I stopped checking out the REDUser website almost a year ago when it became apparent to me that RED is a company for dreamers, not people who actually make their living in the here and now with video/digital cinema cameras. I have used the RED ONE twice and overall, I did not enjoy the experience. The camera is buggy, the ergonomics and post work flow each require yet another process to learn and deal with. So let me get this straight, RED is going to bring a 2/3" Scarlet to a market in which it is already basically superseded by DSLRs and they are going to increase the price and the delivery schedule? Umm, yeah. That really excites me. The FF Scarlet at least sounds interesting but at probably at least U.S. $10k for a fully loaded package, so what. Canon, Sony and Panasonic will have something probably that is a DSLR imager and lens mount in a video camera form factor for considerably less by then. RED is dead or at least irrelevant to me. Maybe someday when they are shipping a real product that I am interested in, then I might give them a try. But in a world where you can buy a Panasonic HPX2700 for $19,500.00 and a Sony F350 for less, the relevance of a $28k Epic body becomes less and less IMHO. Yes, the Sony and Panasonics are video cameras and the EPIC is a digital cinema camera, but those lines are blurring quickly as well. I have seen clips from two films shot on the 2700 that looked really nice. Our world is changing so quickly that I doubt RED will keep up. I foresee another NewTek in the making. Dan

October 31st, 2009, 12:26 AM	#8
Mike Watson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 124	IMO (and perhaps only IMO) we owe RED a great debt of gratitude for thinking big and giving the shooting public what they deserve. This industry has been stuck in a rut for 30 years, and only moved on from 480i because of government mandate. Were it not for Jim Jannard and the RED team, we would still be marveling at how great it was to get HDV at 1080i for $10k. Sony's "innovation" is to re-brand beta every few years and charge $50k for the privilege. I have shot with RED, and I have to agree with you, it is not the sunshiny smiles that the fanboys claim it to be. I expect Scarlet to be (a) more expensive than we like, (b) later than we like, and (c) less user friendly. But for a company that a mere three NAB's ago was made up of a guy who owned a sunglass company and a dream, I am damn impressed with how far they've come. And without them, I honestly believe there would be no 5D, no EX-3, no 60p HD anything, and no looking forward to 3k, 4k, or really anything outside of 1440x1080. They scared the shit out of the industry, and we owe them our thanks.

October 31st, 2009, 05:03 AM	#9
Paul Mailath Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Central Coast - NSW, Australia Posts: 711	it's not just your opinion Mike - I think you're right. we do owe Jim a lot, he has poked the big boys in the eye and made them take notice - it's an exciting time __________________ Cheers - Paul M. www.relive-the-day.com

October 31st, 2009, 05:45 AM	#10
Liam Hall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 531	Pricing, specs and schedule for Scarlet are released on November 30th. They've upped the specs of Scarlet because of the success of 5D/7D. This is a good thing for everybody. More choice and competition results in better tools that are affordable for everyone. Why complain?? __________________ Writer-Director-DOP www.liamhall.net

October 31st, 2009, 08:21 AM	#11
Brian Drysdale Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 1,312	RED do need to offer something that the DSLRs can't or if they do Canon etc risk annoying their main market for these products - stills photographers by increasing the cost of purchasing a camera. If the market is mostly happy with the current HD video codec why increase costs by adding RAW for motion? After all, most stills photographers don't use RAW.

October 31st, 2009, 12:24 PM	#14
Mike Watson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 124	Seems to me that every still photographer I've spoken with despises the fact that the option even exists on their camera.

October 31st, 2009, 01:55 PM	#15
Louis Maddalena Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NYC Area. Posts: 309	Which makes little to no sense. Why do they mind if there is a feature on their camera that they don't use? __________________ www.LouisMaddalena.com

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