Slow motion scaled up and given pulldown? at DVinfo.net

Brian Parker · October 3rd, 2009, 10:40 AM

Just throwing this out there:

1. If I wanted to shoot slow motion, I could shoot in 720p 60fps, and then interpret that footage in Premiere as 30p to see a clip at twice the duration and appears slow motion. How would that look scaled up to 1080 30p in amongst footage shot natively at that resolution?

2. How about if I shot in 720p 60fps, and wanted to get to 24fps 1080p? I have no idea how I would interpret the footage in a 24fps project.

Matthew Nayman · October 3rd, 2009, 10:44 AM

You can take 720p60p into cinematools, conform to 24p, put into 1080p24p timeline, and it will play in slow motion. If you then want to turn the footage into normal speed 24p, you will have to time-confirm to the original 60p run length in Compressor.

Craig Coston · October 3rd, 2009, 03:24 PM

Is there a workflow for PC based users? It appears that CinemaTools is a Mac platform product.

Ray Bell · October 3rd, 2009, 03:45 PM

you can do it in Adobe After Effects or Premier Pro for the PC or MAC

Richard Hunter · October 3rd, 2009, 07:05 PM

You can do it in Edius and Sony Vegas too. In Edius you just set the frame rate you want it to play at. In Vegas you need to stretch the clip but if you do it accurately and also disable Resample there will be no artifacting.

To convert the clip to 24p, Mathew mentions something called "time-confirm" using Compressor. I'm not sure what that means, but on a PC, after getting the clip to play at 24p on the timeline as above, you just need to render the timeline to whatever target format you want. If you use a low loss codec such as Cineform or Canopus HQ the results should be very good.

Richard

Brian Parker · October 4th, 2009, 08:39 PM

I will do a test and post the video. It'll be interesting to see the difference between it being slowed down to 30p and 24p. I imagine 30p will look a bit smoother since that will be exactly 50% of the original speed.

Richard Hunter · October 5th, 2009, 05:29 AM

Well it will be smoother simply due to the fact that it has more frames per second. If the slomo is done properly there will be no artifacts due to frame blending or resampling.

Richard

Craig Coston · October 5th, 2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Hunter

You can do it in Edius and Sony Vegas too. In Edius you just set the frame rate you want it to play at. In Vegas you need to stretch the clip but if you do it accurately and also disable Resample there will be no artifacting.

To convert the clip to 24p, Mathew mentions something called "time-confirm" using Compressor. I'm not sure what that means, but on a PC, after getting the clip to play at 24p on the timeline as above, you just need to render the timeline to whatever target format you want. If you use a low loss codec such as Cineform or Canopus HQ the results should be very good.

Richard

Thanks Richard. As far as Edius goes, is there a possibility of utilizing watch folders in Procoder Express to do the dirty work of converting? Ideally I would like keep my editing in Premiere as all my added effects are in Premiere (note to Grass Valley... better third party support would be WONDERFUL! Work with the Red Giant guys!). I think it would be cumbersome to have to bring everything into a timeline in Edius and export, so a Procoder Express setting that could be used to create a watch folder and have all files that are copied into a certain folder converted for use in Premiere would be wonderful. I guess I could figure all this out if I had some 720p60 samples to play with. Anyone know of any samples that can be grabbed online?

Chris Barcellos · October 5th, 2009, 10:20 AM

As I recall, in Vegas, I believe you would simply apply a change to the play back rate on the clip, from the time line. So instead of play back at 60p, you would change the rate to get you 24 fps. This can be done by right clicking on the clip while on the time line, and entering properties. If I recall right, and there will be a play back rate. I think you would set the playback rate at .400.

Can any 7D/Vegas user confirm that process in Vegas ?

Note: You will end up with only a partial of the clip left on the time line, but that clip can be expanded to the end at the same playback rate.

Chris Medico · October 5th, 2009, 01:51 PM

When you bring a video clip into your editor the program reads the metatags to determine the frame rate. I would recommend going in and changing those metatags to your target frame rate instead of running it through extra steps in your editing system. Your editor will see the video as 24p (or whatever you set the rate to) and play it accordingly with no rendering or quality hit.

You can find free programs that allow for metatag editing. I can give a brief explanation of anyone is interested. It only takes seconds and doesn't change the video itself at all. Only how your software plays it.

Richard Hunter · October 6th, 2009, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

When you bring a video clip into your editor the program reads the metatags to determine the frame rate. I would recommend going in and changing those metatags to your target frame rate instead of running it through extra steps in your editing system. Your editor will see the video as 24p (or whatever you set the rate to) and play it accordingly with no rendering or quality hit.

You can find free programs that allow for metatag editing. I can give a brief explanation of anyone is interested. It only takes seconds and doesn't change the video itself at all. Only how your software plays it.

Hi Chris. The reason for rendering the clip out at the target frame rate is to make it easier to work with if further editing is required. Editing native AVCHD from Canon DSLRs is no fun. As I mentioned, if you render to Cineform or Canopus HQ there will be minimal degradation.

Richard

Richard Hunter · October 6th, 2009, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Coston

Thanks Richard. As far as Edius goes, is there a possibility of utilizing watch folders in Procoder Express to do the dirty work of converting? Ideally I would like keep my editing in Premiere as all my added effects are in Premiere (note to Grass Valley... better third party support would be WONDERFUL! Work with the Red Giant guys!). I think it would be cumbersome to have to bring everything into a timeline in Edius and export, so a Procoder Express setting that could be used to create a watch folder and have all files that are copied into a certain folder converted for use in Premiere would be wonderful. I guess I could figure all this out if I had some 720p60 samples to play with. Anyone know of any samples that can be grabbed online?

Hi Craig. I have Procoder, not Express, but I don't see any reason why Express watch folders wouldn't work for this. Procoder 3 can convert the AVCHD files no problem so I assume Express can too.

Richard

Richard Hunter · October 6th, 2009, 06:19 AM

On second thoughts I'm not so sure that Procoder/Express would work. The files I have converted in Procoder the past were 5D2 at 30fps and I didn't need to change the frame rate. Procoder will adjust the clip frame rate rather than resample if the difference between source and target rates is small (e.g. 25p to 24p). But 60p to 24p is probably going to force a resample which is not as good as interpreting the clip frame rate.

I could test it out if you like, but not until the weekend because I am tied up with work until then.

Richard

Lawrence Kim · October 7th, 2009, 03:23 PM

i would think that if you want to slow down 60p footage to 30p, you would want to shoot at 1/125th shutter to get less motion blur. I could be wrong with all this as the digital stuff boggles me sometimes. some people have shot at 1/1000th shutter with the 5D2 and it didnt look too different from say 1/200th shutter

Richard Hunter · October 9th, 2009, 07:14 PM

I tried converting 60p to 24p with Procoder, but it doesn't produce a slomo effect at all, it just resamples the frame rate and makes a 24p clip of the same duration (and speed) as the 60p original.

There is a setting that allows you to Enable Source Playback Speed Adjustment and set Max Adjustment to x%. I tried setting x to 500, but it still would not stretch the clip on conversion. Streching works fine when I convert 25p to 24p, but it looks like 60p is too far away for the design intentionm of this feature.

So it looks like you would need to use the NLE for the conversion to slomo.

Richard

October 3rd, 2009, 10:40 AM	#1
Brian Parker Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Tokyo Posts: 230	Slow motion scaled up and given pulldown? Just throwing this out there: 1. If I wanted to shoot slow motion, I could shoot in 720p 60fps, and then interpret that footage in Premiere as 30p to see a clip at twice the duration and appears slow motion. How would that look scaled up to 1080 30p in amongst footage shot natively at that resolution? 2. How about if I shot in 720p 60fps, and wanted to get to 24fps 1080p? I have no idea how I would interpret the footage in a 24fps project.

October 5th, 2009, 10:20 AM	#9
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	As I recall, in Vegas, I believe you would simply apply a change to the play back rate on the clip, from the time line. So instead of play back at 60p, you would change the rate to get you 24 fps. This can be done by right clicking on the clip while on the time line, and entering properties. If I recall right, and there will be a play back rate. I think you would set the playback rate at .400. Can any 7D/Vegas user confirm that process in Vegas ? Note: You will end up with only a partial of the clip left on the time line, but that clip can be expanded to the end at the same playback rate. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

October 5th, 2009, 01:51 PM	#10
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	When you bring a video clip into your editor the program reads the metatags to determine the frame rate. I would recommend going in and changing those metatags to your target frame rate instead of running it through extra steps in your editing system. Your editor will see the video as 24p (or whatever you set the rate to) and play it accordingly with no rendering or quality hit. You can find free programs that allow for metatag editing. I can give a brief explanation of anyone is interested. It only takes seconds and doesn't change the video itself at all. Only how your software plays it. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

October 3rd, 2009, 10:44 AM	#2
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	You can take 720p60p into cinematools, conform to 24p, put into 1080p24p timeline, and it will play in slow motion. If you then want to turn the footage into normal speed 24p, you will have to time-confirm to the original 60p run length in Compressor.

October 3rd, 2009, 03:24 PM	#3
Craig Coston Major Player Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Bakersfield, CA Posts: 232	Is there a workflow for PC based users? It appears that CinemaTools is a Mac platform product.

October 3rd, 2009, 03:45 PM	#4
Ray Bell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,414	you can do it in Adobe After Effects or Premier Pro for the PC or MAC

October 3rd, 2009, 07:05 PM	#5
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	You can do it in Edius and Sony Vegas too. In Edius you just set the frame rate you want it to play at. In Vegas you need to stretch the clip but if you do it accurately and also disable Resample there will be no artifacting. To convert the clip to 24p, Mathew mentions something called "time-confirm" using Compressor. I'm not sure what that means, but on a PC, after getting the clip to play at 24p on the timeline as above, you just need to render the timeline to whatever target format you want. If you use a low loss codec such as Cineform or Canopus HQ the results should be very good. Richard

October 4th, 2009, 08:39 PM	#6
Brian Parker Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Tokyo Posts: 230	I will do a test and post the video. It'll be interesting to see the difference between it being slowed down to 30p and 24p. I imagine 30p will look a bit smoother since that will be exactly 50% of the original speed.

October 5th, 2009, 05:29 AM	#7
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	Well it will be smoother simply due to the fact that it has more frames per second. If the slomo is done properly there will be no artifacts due to frame blending or resampling. Richard

October 6th, 2009, 06:19 AM	#13
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	On second thoughts I'm not so sure that Procoder/Express would work. The files I have converted in Procoder the past were 5D2 at 30fps and I didn't need to change the frame rate. Procoder will adjust the clip frame rate rather than resample if the difference between source and target rates is small (e.g. 25p to 24p). But 60p to 24p is probably going to force a resample which is not as good as interpreting the clip frame rate. I could test it out if you like, but not until the weekend because I am tied up with work until then. Richard

October 7th, 2009, 03:23 PM	#14
Lawrence Kim New Boot Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 11	i would think that if you want to slow down 60p footage to 30p, you would want to shoot at 1/125th shutter to get less motion blur. I could be wrong with all this as the digital stuff boggles me sometimes. some people have shot at 1/1000th shutter with the 5D2 and it didnt look too different from say 1/200th shutter

October 9th, 2009, 07:14 PM	#15
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	I tried converting 60p to 24p with Procoder, but it doesn't produce a slomo effect at all, it just resamples the frame rate and makes a 24p clip of the same duration (and speed) as the 60p original. There is a setting that allows you to Enable Source Playback Speed Adjustment and set Max Adjustment to x%. I tried setting x to 500, but it still would not stretch the clip on conversion. Streching works fine when I convert 25p to 24p, but it looks like 60p is too far away for the design intentionm of this feature. So it looks like you would need to use the NLE for the conversion to slomo. Richard