Why persist with a 'video camera'?

Bruce Foreman · October 13th, 2009, 11:25 AM

I think some folks are so excited about this 7D and what all is included that they envision it as a potential replacement for every application, when we are still in (and will remain in) a world where the right tool for the job will be the rule.

I do most projects for me, for fun, and sometimes for competition or for light distribution on DVD and most of it winds up rendered to an HD file format for display on my 42" LCD TV. The video capable DSLR supplements my HF100's with what the VDSLR does better (control over DOF, low light/night work) but takes a "back seat" when the video camera is the more flexible tool. And I sometimes will use both on the same project.

Again a special situation would be where I don't know what I will be doing, stills or video. When I walk out the door "travelling light" the VDSLR is what is called for. Even though it may not be the right tool for the "job" I stumble upon it will be what I have with me.

I would say the VDSLR absolutely does not replace the video cam at this point, but in a lot of cases it can sure supplement very strongly.

Chris Barcellos · October 13th, 2009, 12:31 PM

My experience with the 5D as well as having shot a short with the HVX200 and a 35mm adapter leaves me with the follow observations about the 35mm DSLR.

1. If you are a budget film maker, looking for a budget method of getting a 35mm depth of field look, the Canon 5D or 7D gives you that look for less money than you can event get a decent 35mm adapter and a camera combination going. The 7D is looking like a magnificent bargain, and I don't even have one to try to defend at this point.

2. These camera work great in controlled lighting and shooting situations. If you know your camera, you have as much creative control as with any other video camera-- more in fact because of the the depth of field choices. And in low light situations where cameras like the HVX200 turn to hyper graininess, the image of these cameras still shine.

3. Realistically, these cameras are no tsomething you want to shoot for long events, nor are they great for sporting events, unless you want to sink a lot of dough in long lenses. Overheating and lack of continuous shooting are issues. To get the same telephoto effect as my 12x FX1, even my 80-200 with a 2x converter does not provide the same telephoto effect.

4. The image of the camera can be shot to produce stunning results, the proof is in the image. While you can talk about 4:2:2 v. 4:2;0 and 4:0:0, I tend to ignore that stuff, because I am concerned what the finished product is like. I can tell by stuff posted on the web, that great finished products can be the result shot planning. I just have to learn to do it. By shooting flat , and using an intermediate codec (NeoScene) in post, I think I can get a reasonably editable file that will color correct into a decent file. Also by learning how to control the camera, I can limit the issues with aliasing and moire.

5. Now if I am doing a major motion picture, with a budget, of course I don't shoot the 5D or 7D. Noone is claiming it replaces the likes of 35mm film cameras, or those high end digital film cameras. But neither does a 35mm film adapter and camera. They have their own disabilities. And I still remember film outs of successful films shot with cameras of DV resolution, so I am thinking that if I happen to shoot a great project with the 5D or 7D, its salability will not be greatly affected.

6. Magic Lantern has fixed a lot of the disabilities of the 5D, and if Trammel Hudson or others can get it ported over to the 7D, you will be able to shoot in camera sound, and have enhanced exposure control with 24p.

Ultimately, I look at these cameras as a cheap form of film school, and I would be crazy not to take advantage of it.

Benjamin Eckstein · October 13th, 2009, 02:53 PM

Nice post Chris. I like everything you are saying!

Tim Davison · October 14th, 2009, 06:30 AM

Thank you Chris, that is an extremely useful summary. I work primarily in very low light situations (in clubs, gigs etc) but rarely shooting one scene for a particularly protracted length of time. The footage shot is used by performers on websites etc for promotion so the 7d/5d look ideal.

One question that I'm struggling to answer is what is the largest memory card the 7d can hold? I understand that it cannot shoot more than 12 mins but what size card does this equate to? Do pyou simply buy a number of cards or do you typically download the footage to a laptop etc as you go?

Kin Lau · October 14th, 2009, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Davison

One question that I'm struggling to answer is what is the largest memory card the 7d can hold? I understand that it cannot shoot more than 12 mins but what size card does this equate to? Do pyou simply buy a number of cards or do you typically download the footage to a laptop etc as you go?

I'm using 32gig cards for both photos and video. It's likely easier to just get a few 32gig CF's than off-loading to a laptop, since even at 30MB/s, 32gigs will take about 15min's to download. 32gigs is about good for 1.5hrs of video (12min's per 4gigs).

64gig cards have just become available, but they're at a premium.

Ian G. Thompson · October 14th, 2009, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Ultimately, I look at these cameras as a cheap form of film school, and I would be crazy not to take advantage of it.

Dude, that line basically sums up what I have been thinking. Thanks.

Tim Davison · October 14th, 2009, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kin Lau

I'm using 32gig cards for both photos and video. It's likely easier to just get a few 32gig CF's than off-loading to a laptop, since even at 30MB/s, 32gigs will take about 15min's to download. 32gigs is about good for 1.5hrs of video (12min's per 4gigs).

64gig cards have just become available, but they're at a premium.

Oooh I thought that 12 mins was the max time you could record video irrespective of the video card size.

Kin Lau · October 14th, 2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Davison

Oooh I thought that 12 mins was the max time you could record video irrespective of the video card size.

12 min's per clip - it's the 4gig file size limit, but you can shoot as many clips as can fit on the card.

Evan Donn · October 14th, 2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

If I didn't own any cameras now and had to buy just one video camera for what I do (corporate work as well as documentary), I don't think I'd feel comfortable with any HDSLR for that purpose. On the other hand, If I only had $2K to spend and needed a camera and wanted the best quality I could get for that price, then the 7D might be my first choice.

I bought the 5D last year thinking the same thing - it would augment my XHA1 but never replace it. Approximately a year later I've used the XHA1 maybe three times, in each case when I needed a second camera that I could set and forget while I moved around with the 5D. Right now the only reason I haven't sold the XHA1 is the library of tapes I have which are shot in Canon's proprietary 24f, but once I make sure the important ones are captured to disc I'll probably sell. This is not to say that it's necessarily a video camera replacement - that obviously depends on what type of shooting you do - but just that in my experience once I started shooting with it I didn't really want to shoot with my video camera anymore.

Bill Pryor · October 15th, 2009, 08:45 AM

That could happen. I'm already planning on doing a short with it, hopefully before the end of the year. I'll probably shoot everything with it but will use the XH A1 for the Steadicam shots, mainly because of the flipout LCD. Also, for the type of Steadicam shot where I move up to one person, hold, then move to another, the auto focus is nice. That's the only time I've ever used auto focus. The deeper depth of field of the XH A1 helps in that regard too. So it might end up becoming my Steadicamcam. I also have too many HDV tapes shot at 24F. I'd have to make sure all is captured and backed up before getting rid of the camera and I probably won't be ready to do that for a long time.

Also, having two cameras is nice, especially for road trips. In years past I always had a second camera in case of any problem, but for the past 3 years I've only had the one. A backup is always good on a critical shoot.

My big hesitation, though, is the tapeless workflow. I don't like the idea of having to load and backup everything. Right now, I don't care if a drive crashes--I have the tapes. And I have seen numerous firewire drives die for no apparent reason. What I plan to do with the 7D footage is load it, then store it in 4 gig batches onto the good quality DVDs. Probably eventually I'll get a Blu-ray burner. On the positive side of tapelessness, in the HDSLR world the cards are cheap enough so I can buy however many are necessary and get through a week shoot without having to worry about uploading footage every night in a hotel room; I can do it when convenient. Also there's no need to stop and load footage during a shoot like people have to do with P2 because of the cost. Using non proprietary common media goes a long way toward making the tapeless thing work for me. But I still prefer tape.

Perrone Ford · October 15th, 2009, 10:39 AM

"My big hesitation, though, is the tapeless workflow."

Sorry to hear that. Most people who've abandoned tape haven't gone back...

"I don't like the idea of having to load and backup everything. Right now, I don't care if a drive crashes--I have the tapes. "

Hmmm, so what happens if the tape gets trashed? Dust, drop outs, gets mangled in the tape mechanism...

"But I still prefer tape."

Give me the price of a tape solution that stores 1920x1080.

Alex Leith · October 15th, 2009, 11:05 AM

I have to agree with Perrone. I was very nervous about a tapeless workflow initially, but it makes everything much easier - we've never looked back.

For live projects we keep content on a mirrored RAID. Once the project is finished we hand over a hard drive with all footage and finished project to our client and tell them that it is their responsibility to keep the footage backed-up / safe. We also keep a hard drive ourselves, and if we think there is a good chance that the client may be coming back for more changes, etc. then we keep a third drive!

Jeff Kellam · October 15th, 2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kin Lau

12 min's per clip - it's the 4gig file size limit, but you can shoot as many clips as can fit on the card.

Unfortunately, that's a total deal breaker for shooting live events, which wouldn't be a good application anyway.

And the recording limits are tied to file size and the current European Union tax structure for video recording devices.

Rhys Day · October 15th, 2009, 07:51 PM

When you purchase rails, handles, follow focus, matte box etc for a VDSLR, it may become as large as a normal video camera, and cost more then the actual VDSLR itself, but they can be used for any other cameras down the track... such as scarlet. I'd rather invest the money on a modula system with parts that won't depreciate, instead o spending my whole budget on a proper video camera that will be completly out dated and gathering dust in a couple of years.

Brian Luce · October 15th, 2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

"My big hesitation, though, is the tapeless workflow."

Sorry to hear that. Most people who've abandoned tape haven't gone back...

Give me the price of a tape solution that stores 1920x1080.

I'm a worrier. I love having those old HDV tapes in the drawer. Just in case. I've owned the EX3, 7D, and HD100. The problem is I can't sell the HD100 because then I'm stuck without a deck.

Hard drive must be the worst archive solution ever made. I also don't trust optical media.

I'm hoping to find some sort of DLT solution.

October 13th, 2009, 12:31 PM	#32
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	My experience with the 5D as well as having shot a short with the HVX200 and a 35mm adapter leaves me with the follow observations about the 35mm DSLR. 1. If you are a budget film maker, looking for a budget method of getting a 35mm depth of field look, the Canon 5D or 7D gives you that look for less money than you can event get a decent 35mm adapter and a camera combination going. The 7D is looking like a magnificent bargain, and I don't even have one to try to defend at this point. 2. These camera work great in controlled lighting and shooting situations. If you know your camera, you have as much creative control as with any other video camera-- more in fact because of the the depth of field choices. And in low light situations where cameras like the HVX200 turn to hyper graininess, the image of these cameras still shine. 3. Realistically, these cameras are no tsomething you want to shoot for long events, nor are they great for sporting events, unless you want to sink a lot of dough in long lenses. Overheating and lack of continuous shooting are issues. To get the same telephoto effect as my 12x FX1, even my 80-200 with a 2x converter does not provide the same telephoto effect. 4. The image of the camera can be shot to produce stunning results, the proof is in the image. While you can talk about 4:2:2 v. 4:2;0 and 4:0:0, I tend to ignore that stuff, because I am concerned what the finished product is like. I can tell by stuff posted on the web, that great finished products can be the result shot planning. I just have to learn to do it. By shooting flat , and using an intermediate codec (NeoScene) in post, I think I can get a reasonably editable file that will color correct into a decent file. Also by learning how to control the camera, I can limit the issues with aliasing and moire. 5. Now if I am doing a major motion picture, with a budget, of course I don't shoot the 5D or 7D. Noone is claiming it replaces the likes of 35mm film cameras, or those high end digital film cameras. But neither does a 35mm film adapter and camera. They have their own disabilities. And I still remember film outs of successful films shot with cameras of DV resolution, so I am thinking that if I happen to shoot a great project with the 5D or 7D, its salability will not be greatly affected. 6. Magic Lantern has fixed a lot of the disabilities of the 5D, and if Trammel Hudson or others can get it ported over to the 7D, you will be able to shoot in camera sound, and have enhanced exposure control with 24p. Ultimately, I look at these cameras as a cheap form of film school, and I would be crazy not to take advantage of it. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

October 15th, 2009, 10:39 AM	#41
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	"My big hesitation, though, is the tapeless workflow." Sorry to hear that. Most people who've abandoned tape haven't gone back... "I don't like the idea of having to load and backup everything. Right now, I don't care if a drive crashes--I have the tapes. " Hmmm, so what happens if the tape gets trashed? Dust, drop outs, gets mangled in the tape mechanism... "But I still prefer tape." Give me the price of a tape solution that stores 1920x1080. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

October 15th, 2009, 11:05 AM	#42
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	I have to agree with Perrone. I was very nervous about a tapeless workflow initially, but it makes everything much easier - we've never looked back. For live projects we keep content on a mirrored RAID. Once the project is finished we hand over a hard drive with all footage and finished project to our client and tell them that it is their responsibility to keep the footage backed-up / safe. We also keep a hard drive ourselves, and if we think there is a good chance that the client may be coming back for more changes, etc. then we keep a third drive! __________________ Alex

October 13th, 2009, 11:25 AM	#31
Bruce Foreman Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Angelo Texas Posts: 1,518	I think some folks are so excited about this 7D and what all is included that they envision it as a potential replacement for every application, when we are still in (and will remain in) a world where the right tool for the job will be the rule. I do most projects for me, for fun, and sometimes for competition or for light distribution on DVD and most of it winds up rendered to an HD file format for display on my 42" LCD TV. The video capable DSLR supplements my HF100's with what the VDSLR does better (control over DOF, low light/night work) but takes a "back seat" when the video camera is the more flexible tool. And I sometimes will use both on the same project. Again a special situation would be where I don't know what I will be doing, stills or video. When I walk out the door "travelling light" the VDSLR is what is called for. Even though it may not be the right tool for the "job" I stumble upon it will be what I have with me. I would say the VDSLR absolutely does not replace the video cam at this point, but in a lot of cases it can sure supplement very strongly.

October 13th, 2009, 02:53 PM	#33
Benjamin Eckstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 380 Images: 1	Nice post Chris. I like everything you are saying!

October 14th, 2009, 06:30 AM	#34
Tim Davison Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: London, England Posts: 183	Thank you Chris, that is an extremely useful summary. I work primarily in very low light situations (in clubs, gigs etc) but rarely shooting one scene for a particularly protracted length of time. The footage shot is used by performers on websites etc for promotion so the 7d/5d look ideal. One question that I'm struggling to answer is what is the largest memory card the 7d can hold? I understand that it cannot shoot more than 12 mins but what size card does this equate to? Do pyou simply buy a number of cards or do you typically download the footage to a laptop etc as you go?

October 15th, 2009, 08:45 AM	#40
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	That could happen. I'm already planning on doing a short with it, hopefully before the end of the year. I'll probably shoot everything with it but will use the XH A1 for the Steadicam shots, mainly because of the flipout LCD. Also, for the type of Steadicam shot where I move up to one person, hold, then move to another, the auto focus is nice. That's the only time I've ever used auto focus. The deeper depth of field of the XH A1 helps in that regard too. So it might end up becoming my Steadicamcam. I also have too many HDV tapes shot at 24F. I'd have to make sure all is captured and backed up before getting rid of the camera and I probably won't be ready to do that for a long time. Also, having two cameras is nice, especially for road trips. In years past I always had a second camera in case of any problem, but for the past 3 years I've only had the one. A backup is always good on a critical shoot. My big hesitation, though, is the tapeless workflow. I don't like the idea of having to load and backup everything. Right now, I don't care if a drive crashes--I have the tapes. And I have seen numerous firewire drives die for no apparent reason. What I plan to do with the 7D footage is load it, then store it in 4 gig batches onto the good quality DVDs. Probably eventually I'll get a Blu-ray burner. On the positive side of tapelessness, in the HDSLR world the cards are cheap enough so I can buy however many are necessary and get through a week shoot without having to worry about uploading footage every night in a hotel room; I can do it when convenient. Also there's no need to stop and load footage during a shoot like people have to do with P2 because of the cost. Using non proprietary common media goes a long way toward making the tapeless thing work for me. But I still prefer tape.

October 15th, 2009, 07:51 PM	#44
Rhys Day Tourist Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3	When you purchase rails, handles, follow focus, matte box etc for a VDSLR, it may become as large as a normal video camera, and cost more then the actual VDSLR itself, but they can be used for any other cameras down the track... such as scarlet. I'd rather invest the money on a modula system with parts that won't depreciate, instead o spending my whole budget on a proper video camera that will be completly out dated and gathering dust in a couple of years.