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Canon EOS Crop Sensor for HD
APS-C sensor cameras including the 80D, 70D, 7D Mk. II, 7D, EOS M and Rebel models for HD video recording.


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Old October 15th, 2009, 10:39 PM   #46
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I trust optical a HECK of a lot more than I trust tape. While we often see professionals extol the virtues of tape there is a piece that is always left out. And that is that archive tape needs to live in some very specific conditions.

I backup critical government data as part of my living. And I am not talking about video. We did tape for a long time. BUT that tape lived in a fire safe, in a room that was temperature and humidity controlled, and had a halon system installed.

After watching what happened during Katrina in New Orleans we realized that we had a HUGE liability in terms of water damage. He had protected against fire with halon, against dust and foreign particle intrusion with the safe, as well as physical security, but water was a REAL issue.

Optical media is not susceptible to water damage, dust damage, humidity damage, etc. At least not in normal environments. It requires no physical contact to operate so playing or reviewing the viability of the stored data does not degrade the media. It is not susceptible to magnetic field or x-ray, so transport gets easier. Where optical falls down is in backup speed compared to modern LTO standards, and in density in regards to how much data can be backed up per unit of media. The issue with LTO is that you need the drives to run it, and LTO-3 drives are about $1k right now, with tapes running about $30 each for 400GB. And every other iteration of the technology is not backwards compatible. So LTO-5 will read LTO-5 and LTO4, but not LTO-3. So you have to refresh your library every 3 years or so. We played this game with DLT for years before abandoning it.

So honestly, your choices are:

1. Stay on HDV and use cheap tapes
2. Go tapeless and archive to HDD/Optical
3. Go tapeless and archive to LTO (DLT is worthless at this point)
4. Wait for something new to come along.
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Old October 16th, 2009, 08:20 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
I trust optical a HECK of a lot more than I trust tape. While we often see professionals extol the virtues of tape there is a piece that is always left out. And that is that archive tape needs to live in some very specific conditions.....

So honestly, your choices are:

1. Stay on HDV and use cheap tapes
2. Go tapeless and archive to HDD/Optical
3. Go tapeless and archive to LTO (DLT is worthless at this point)
4. Wait for something new to come along.
Good information Perrone that is mostly overlooked.

Even for those people storing on analog, DV or HDVtapes, you have to keep the camera forever. Ive got an analog tape right now I need some footage off of and no way to get it because the 10 year old camera is broken. Also, I had to capture all my most important, but not all, XH-A1 HDV footage before I could sell the cameras as the tapes become useless when the camera is gone. I did a lot of work in the past on a JVC HDV camera and am stuck with it as a capture device until I find a few hundred free hours to capture the tapes. Camera tape is no solution at all IMO.

Im currently all tapeless nowdays. I have a 3X redundant, fire safed, HDD backup program that works for me until a better solution comes along. IMO, hard drives may not be reliable, but they are inexpensive.
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Old October 16th, 2009, 01:09 PM   #48
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Tape decks/camera *can* be fixed actually.

Perrone actually has me thinking about LTO3, it might not be forward compatible but the $1000 price point is tempting. I'd have to believe the build is robust and that HP(?) will continue to support it parts wise. If not, I'm sure someone, somewhere would have one.

I think HP also makes a lower capacity data tape for considerably less than even LTO3.
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Old October 16th, 2009, 01:47 PM   #49
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Hard drives are currently about $73 per TB, so $1,000 would get you about 13.7 TB. Triple redundancy would get you 4.6 TB of storage out of the 13.7 TB. That's still a lot of money and a possible reason for using LTO if you have lots of TB to store.

LTO 4s are about $40 (800 GB), so 1TB is $50 (plus drive equipment). How many redundant LTOs do you need? Id guess one would be enough.
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Old October 16th, 2009, 04:14 PM   #50
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Ok...

So let's talk tape.

The first two images show our first DLT libraries. I watched 3 of these fail over 3 years. They were so much a problem they were replaced with the gray units you see. Two of those failed (one let blue smoke out of the back with a month of my data stuck inside). Note that they now both live in our technology graveyard. You can see we went to two SAN solutions, one HP, one Third Party. Finally, you can see a photo of half of my local data center. I have 6 similar installations and protect over 100TB daily. We abandoned tape 3 years ago as too slow, and too difficult to deal with. The off-site shuffling, geographic dispersment, etc., were just too onerous.

I get it. I get tape, I really do. And I also get redundancy. Those tape libraries were stored in a temperature and humidity controlled room with Halon. None of you guys is going to spend the $80k it took to build that. And still I had over half of my tape units fail under warranty. At one point, the service tech actually had to source us replacements from overseas because the supply of working units in the US was zero. This was with HP/Compaq.

We had to destroy hundreds of backup tapes with sensitive data on them to leave this solution. And it was worth every bit of the trouble.

So you guys are welcome to ignore what I am saying but I am telling you that tape is NOT the panacea that many people would have you believe. Been there, done that.
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Old October 16th, 2009, 04:42 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam View Post
Hard drives are currently about $73 per TB, so $1,000 would get you about 13.7 TB. Triple redundancy would get you 4.6 TB of storage out of the 13.7 TB. That's still a lot of money and a possible reason for using LTO if you have lots of TB to store.

LTO 4s are about $40 (800 GB), so 1TB is $50 (plus drive equipment). How many redundant LTOs do you need? Id guess one would be enough.
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Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
Ok...

So let's talk tape.

The first two images show our first DLT libraries. I watched 3 of these fail over 3 years. They were so much a problem they were replaced with the gray units you see. Two of those failed (one let blue smoke out of the back with a month of my data stuck inside). Note that they now both live in our technology graveyard.
.
Okay but it's the decks that fail right? not the tapes. Presumably the decks and tapes can be untethered? I really don't know as the studio I worked for archived in BetaCam SP.

Your government data bank photos are fascinating. I could be wrong, but I think I spotted the Arc of the Covenant in one of those JPEGs.
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Old October 16th, 2009, 04:50 PM   #52
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Thanks for sharing, Perrone. Now we know where Area 51 threads go after Chris Hurd locks them. :D I switched from tape to disk backup in the 90's when tapes were 1 GB. They're getting more and more inconvenient to lug to offsite backups (at first just 1 hdd, then 1 4-disk array, now 8x1TB disks), but based on your post it sounds like it's worth the trouble.
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Old October 16th, 2009, 10:57 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Brian Luce View Post
Okay but it's the decks that fail right? not the tapes. Presumably the decks and tapes can be untethered?
In this case, yes it was the decks. However, you should verify the viability of your tapes at intervals. Maybe that's once or twice a year. So let's examine the scenario.

You purchase an LTO-3 drive for $1k. You purchase a 8 tapes at $30 each to back up 1.5TB and have two copies of each. Because you don't have a safe location, you buy a safe deposit box to store your safety backups.

You keep this solution for a few years and now you have years worth of data stored on tape. If you buy a new drive, you will need to ensure you do not go beyond LTO-5 because it may not be compatible. This may not seem like a big deal, but as time moves on, and your data collection grows,

You'll have sunk thousands into a storage solution only to have to turn around and buy it all again. I guess this is inevitable with any solution, so choose wisely.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 06:11 PM   #54
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I use a fast RAID for online access of media, and I back that up to a Drobo in which 1 the 4 drives can fail without a loss of data. There is also a new 'Drobo Pro' which holds 8 drives, and 2 of those can fail and the data is still safe. I also have a very fast internet connection (fast upload as well) back up to 'the cloud' via one of the online backup services out there. So I have a lot of redundancy. If my fast online drive(s) fail, I have the Drobo. If my facility burns down I have the 'cloud.'

I used to use tape back up but it got really expensive and was really slow, and in a few years it was obsolete (tapes to small to backup data), so personally I wouldn't use tape again. (Although I do think it has it's uses) Optical also has it's drawbacks, it's not as durable as people think. The aluminum substrate that holds the data can corrode if there is even a little pinhole in the plastic that covers it and this is actually quite common. There are 'gold' media that have more durability and you can take some care to store it in a less corrosive environment.

This is a universal problem we all have. We are creating more and more data every day. We don't want to lose it, but the data is massive. I think the fact that it is digital now is an advantage, backing data from one hard drive to another is pretty easy and can be automated to some degree. I think we have to be resigned to copy over our data from smaller, older drives to newer, bigger hard drives every few years and keep the older drives a extra redundancy but not rely on them as our primary backup.
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Old October 17th, 2009, 10:56 PM   #55
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^^^ interesting, I use a drobo at work as well.

I think you are correct stating "I think we have to be resigned to copy over our data from smaller, older drives to newer, bigger hard drives every few years and keep the older drives a extra redundancy but not rely on them as our primary backup".
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Old October 18th, 2009, 08:02 AM   #56
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I'm only a couple of days into the 7D, but my XHA1 is much easier to get "very good results" reliably. Some of the 7D footage looks really good, but trying to faithfully capture "one-chance-real-life" is more challenging with the 7D and it's shallow DOF. Of course, not being willing to lug 40 lbs of gear makes capturing those moments impossible with the A1. But on the other side there are times on the A1 when I will switch to AF when things go crazy. Not an option with the 7D. I'm still working through the transition (where' my zebra function?....). I'm also not sure how well the 7D will handle camera motion versus the A1.

Having said all that, I purchased the 7D because I wanted a sub $4K camera & accessories capable gathering high quality video and still images, great DOF control, small form factor, and low light capability. I shoot mainly artistic work, so making several attempts is usually possible. If I control the situation and can order a "redo", the 7D ranks high. If asked to shoot a speaker or wedding and I'm by myself, I'll grab the A1. If going to Italy on vacation or business trip, 7D. If shooting a commercial without sound; 7D. Commercial with sound.....Hmmmm.... not sure yet. Basically if it's short segments and I can have a "redo", the 7D is the better camera in most situations. Real life, complicated set-ups, long format, audio is important, I'll probably go with a traditional video camera.

Long term all this is academic as we will likely have great alternatives in video camera trim in the next 6-12 months. Then I can retire the A1 and use the 7D as a 2nd camera.

Last edited by Roger Shealy; October 18th, 2009 at 12:09 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2009, 08:26 AM   #57
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Roger:

Can't you shoot the 7D at F 7.1 or 8 and get some deeper DOF so you don't have to worry about focus as much?

Also, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for big change in the next 6-12 months. Canon churned out lot of still camera iterations in the past, but is incredibly slow on the video side. Due to the economy and Canons re-positioning, they may be slowing their pace.

Also, it seems they are missing PMA;

"Canon has said it will have no presence or representation at the annual PMA trade show in Anaheim, California, in February. Canon USA has traditionally had one of the largest stands at the show and the Japanese parent company has regularly sent senior figures to the event. However, in light of the convergence of technologies from across its range: 'the decision has been made by Canon USA to only participate in 2010 trade shows and events that have the broadest reach,' the company said. It will still attend the International CES show organized by the Consumer Electronics Association. The event, which covers a wider range of electronics, takes place in Las Vegas, Nevada on January 7-10th."
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Old October 18th, 2009, 11:36 AM   #58
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That's the beauty of bigger chips--you can do what you want with depth of field. However, I agree that somethings are better with the XH A1. Obviously speakers, since you can shoot for an hour non stop. And for Steadicam work, I'll stick with the XH A1.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 07:52 PM   #59
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12 min's per clip - it's the 4gig file size limit, but you can shoot as many clips as can fit on the card.
What happens when it hits 12min. does the viewfinder/lcd go blank or black?
Also curious .....if you are rolling and stop, say after 2 minutes of shooting and restart do you then start over your 12 min time limit?
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Old March 10th, 2010, 05:08 AM   #60
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Yes, if you stop shooting and hit record again you get 12 more minutes, so in an interview I just hit stop/record after each question. If you hit 12 min, the record button goes off. There is a count down meter on the LCD that should help as well.
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