Why persist with a 'video camera'?

[Mike Calla]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam

Roger:

Can't you shoot the 7D at F 7.1 or 8 and get some deeper DOF so you don't have to worry about focus as much?"

Yes, you can, but at F 7.1 or 8 the difference might not be that much depending on the lens.


And to add to the thread, for me the 7D is not a video camera and the video camera vs DLSRs issue for me is moot.

A DLSR should be treated as a digital motion pictures camera with all the inherent PITA that comes with it. For me, in my type of work though (30sec spots), the 7D has changed my life and on many occasions the 7D has been alone with me and talent, in hostile, uncontrollable locations and got some absolutely beautiful images! And the 7D, was my first time shooting solid state (used sony hdvs before). I love it, even with transcode time, the work flow is so smooth! NO DROPOUTS!! Oh the dread of a dropout while watching the capture, even though rare for me cost me some nice shots a few times!

[Jim Forrest]

A question on Audio.
All of my sound gear, both wireless and hard line have XLR connectors. When you do an interview do you just use an mini plug to XLR adapter? What about a 2 mike setup?
I guess you would have to use a mixer to get 2 channels in since the camera only has 1 input?
Just curious how folks are doing this, because I am seeing video from the 7D with at least 2 people talking.
I would probably still use my Sony HVR S-270 for all interviews but I think it is interesting that people are using the 7D for wireless sound. I just put in an order for a 7D last night after reading all the posts here, so thanks all for your insightful comments. Guess I will now sell my Panasonic AG-HMC40 since the 7D will now become my 2nd camera.
BTW Liam the videos on your site are just beautiful, you have some major talent.
Are any shot with your 7D?

[Jon Fairhurst]

You can record stereo into the 7D. The problems are 1) the auto gain, 2) the lack of balanced XLR inputs, the need for a HOT signal, and the lack of phantom power.

Here is part 1 of 6 of my reviews for sound for the 5D2.
vimeo.com/5370880

To counter auto gain, juicedLink now makes the DN101 add on for their CX products.

[Jim Forrest]

Thanks, I watched your reviews and they answered a lot of questions for me.

[Philipp Sokolean]

Maybe you guys can help me out a little. I'm currently working with the Sony FX7 cam and although it's a good camera it isn't really suitable for what I'm filming.
I'm mainly making small movies and music clips and the pictures you get with the FX7 don't have a film-feel to it at all. I know you guys have heard the stories about recreating a film-look with HD cams a million times. I know that it is not possible. But yet, the videos seen on vimeo etc. made with the 7D look far more film-like than the ones made with the Sony EX1/EX3 cameras.
Now my dilemma is whether to go with the the Sony EX series and eventually having to buy the letus adapter, Magic Bullet software etc. but being able to work with all the advantages of a real video camera, or to go with the 7D and the trying to get the most out of it by working in somewhat more uncomfortable ways?
My concern is, can the EX series come even close to the pictures made with the Canon (not so much with resolution and things but with the sheer feeling of the film-look) without using the Letus and stuff? Or is it really just suitable for TV broadcasts and not supposed to be used for making movies at all?
I'm really getting more desperate from day to day, as I've got stories and scripts ready but just can't make up my mind on which camera I'll be using for all my future projects.
I've asked already multiple people but never received an appropriate answer, I hope you guys can help me out here.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Philipp Sokolean

My concern is, can the EX series come even close to the pictures made with the Canon (not so much with resolution and things but with the sheer feeling of the film-look) without using the Letus and stuff?

No, not really.

Originally Posted by Philipp Sokolean

Or is it really just suitable for TV broadcasts and not supposed to be used for making movies at all?

This is incorrect also. Using the EX to make a film requires a number of compromises to get the look. Just as using the 7D requires compromises. They are different compromises.

Originally Posted by Philipp Sokolean

I'm really getting more desperate from day to day, as I've got stories and scripts ready but just can't make up my mind on which camera I'll be using for all my future projects.

Again, they have some VERY different trade-offs for filmmaking. If you are prepared to spend as much on a 7D rig as you would have spent on the EX1, then this is the direction I would go. No question. But you need to think of the 7D rig as shooting electronic film. For all intents and purposes it is a film camera (that shoots to compact flash instead). The workflow should mostly mirror that of film. The shooting techniques, production techniques, etc, should mirror that of film. I DPed our 5D shoot like I was shot an Arri 16mm film. Worked quite well.

Originally Posted by Philipp Sokolean

I've asked already multiple people but never received an appropriate answer, I hope you guys can help me out here.

We can't help you. Only you can help you. Are you ready to shoot the 7D like a film camera? Including lensing, stabilizers, sync sound, post workflow, etc.? If so, then that's your choice. If not, then use a camcorder and sort out the look.

[Jim Forrest]

I am still confused about frame rates. On my video camera I shoot 1920x1080 30p and I like the look better than on 60i. Now this is a difference between interlaced and progressive.
How does frame rate play into this. Is the 30p actually a 30 frame rate? And is 60 interlaced really 60 frames.
I know most like to shoot at 24 frames for a film look but when I tried that is always looked a little jumpy. Besides nothing I shoot will ever be projected on a screen, so I go with 30p.
Is there any reason (when I get my 7D) that I would want to use 24 instead of 30?
I love the look I have been seeing online here. Is everyone shooting at 24 frames?
Just a little confused over the difference between frames, interlaced and progressive. Interlaced and progressive I understand coming from a broadcast background..... frames not so much.
Jim

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Jim Forrest

I am still confused about frame rates. On my video camera I shoot 1920x1080 30p and I like the look better than on 60i. Now this is a difference between interlaced and progressive.

Alright. So you like the look of progressive. Cool.

Originally Posted by Jim Forrest

How does frame rate play into this. Is the 30p actually a 30 frame rate?

Yes. 30p = 30 *P*rogressive frames per second.

Originally Posted by Jim Forrest

And is 60 interlaced really 60 frames.

No, it is 60 half frames per second. Each half is either the even or the odd scan lines

Originally Posted by Jim Forrest

I know most like to shoot at 24 frames for a film look but when I tried that is always looked a little jumpy. Besides nothing I shoot will ever be projected on a screen, so I go with 30p.

It's supposed to look "jumpy". Just like real film.

Originally Posted by Jim Forrest

Is there any reason (when I get my 7D) that I would want to use 24 instead of 30?

Many. But they may not apply to you.

Originally Posted by Jim Forrest

I love the look I have been seeing online here. Is everyone shooting at 24 frames?

No. People shoot what is required to obtain the look they need. Even in Hollywood film 24p is not always used. Any time you see slow motion, it's likely being shot at 60-120p

Originally Posted by Jim Forrest

Just a little confused over the difference between frames, interlaced and progressive. Interlaced and progressive I understand coming from a broadcast background..... frames not so much.
Jim

30p is not a broadcast standard anywhere in the world. So if you shoot in it, you'll have to convert it for broadcast. There is also no good way to get from 30p to 25p, so if you shoot in this, be SURE it will never have to be broadcast overseas. 30p also requires more bandwidth and computer power to decode for computers, so if you put it on the internet, it will make larger files, and will be harder for older computers to play. 30p looks nice and smooth when your machine is fast enough to play it back well. Computers don't do "interlaced". So if you plan on displaying your work on a computer, you'll need to shoot progressive, or convert interlaced to progressive.


Does this help?

[Philipp Sokolean]

Okay, if I go with the 7D can you guys give me some tips on what equipment I should get with it? I know that there are lenses which can bring amazing results like for example the 50mm f1.2 en 24 mm f1.4. Do these have any drawbacks I should be aware of?
Is there any use of getting zoom-lenses?
Also I got lenses from Nikon, will they work with Canon bodies?
What will I need for audio? I'm used to working with XLR and I can imagine that the 7D doesn't support XLR.

[Jim Forrest]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Alright. So you like the look of progressive. Cool.



Yes. 30p = 30 *P*rogressive frames per second.



No, it is 60 half frames per second. Each half is either the even or the odd scan lines




It's supposed to look "jumpy". Just like real film.



Many. But they may not apply to you.



No. People shoot what is required to obtain the look they need. Even in Hollywood film 24p is not always used. Any time you see slow motion, it's likely being shot at 60-120p



30p is not a broadcast standard anywhere in the world. So if you shoot in it, you'll have to convert it for broadcast. There is also no good way to get from 30p to 25p, so if you shoot in this, be SURE it will never have to be broadcast overseas. 30p also requires more bandwidth and computer power to decode for computers, so if you put it on the internet, it will make larger files, and will be harder for older computers to play. 30p looks nice and smooth when your machine is fast enough to play it back well. Computers don't do "interlaced". So if you plan on displaying your work on a computer, you'll need to shoot progressive, or convert interlaced to progressive.


Does this help?

Yes it certainly does. Thank you. One last question, on slow mo you say 60-120p.
Could you explain that a bit further?
Thanks again.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Philipp Sokolean

Okay, if I go with the 7D can you guys give me some tips on what equipment I should get with it?

There are about 200 threads in the Canon 5D and 7D areas that address this topic.

Originally Posted by Philipp Sokolean

I know that there are lenses which can bring amazing results like for example the 50mm f1.2 en 24 mm f1.4. Do these have any drawbacks I should be aware of?

Uh yes. They are hell on the wallet! Honestly, you probably won't need anything faster than a 1.8 or a 2.0 unless you are trying to do reality shooting at night. Then that 1.2 might come in handy. Have you ever tried manually focusing on a moving subject with a 1.4 lens wide open? I suggest you give that a shot on your SLR. Just aim at at someone walking, and see how you do.

Originally Posted by Philipp Sokolean

Is there any use of getting zoom-lenses?

Absolutely. They increase set up speed by orders of magnitude. However, they also rob you of light by orders of magnitude! And if you spend the jack to get F2.8 zooms, they will rob you of money by orders of magnitude!

Originally Posted by Philipp Sokolean

Also I got lenses from Nikon, will they work with Canon bodies?

Yep. Very popular option. Few exceptions here. Nikon G lenses won't work. And I am unsure if pre AI lenses will work. And some of the specialty fisheyes and such won't work.

Originally Posted by Philipp Sokolean

What will I need for audio? I'm used to working with XLR and I can imagine that the 7D doesn't support XLR.

Same thing you'd need for film. Cheap options like the Zoom H4 work, more expensive options like the SoundDevices work too.

[Liam Hall]

Originally Posted by Philipp Sokolean

Maybe you guys can help me out a little. I'm currently working with the Sony FX7 cam and although it's a good camera it isn't really suitable for what I'm filming.
I'm mainly making small movies and music clips and the pictures you get with the FX7 don't have a film-feel to it at all. I know you guys have heard the stories about recreating a film-look with HD cams a million times. I know that it is not possible. But yet, the videos seen on vimeo etc. made with the 7D look far more film-like than the ones made with the Sony EX1/EX3 cameras.
Now my dilemma is whether to go with the the Sony EX series and eventually having to buy the letus adapter, Magic Bullet software etc. but being able to work with all the advantages of a real video camera, or to go with the 7D and the trying to get the most out of it by working in somewhat more uncomfortable ways?
My concern is, can the EX series come even close to the pictures made with the Canon (not so much with resolution and things but with the sheer feeling of the film-look) without using the Letus and stuff? Or is it really just suitable for TV broadcasts and not supposed to be used for making movies at all?
I'm really getting more desperate from day to day, as I've got stories and scripts ready but just can't make up my mind on which camera I'll be using for all my future projects.
I've asked already multiple people but never received an appropriate answer, I hope you guys can help me out here.

Get the 7D. It's a tool for craftsman and artists alike.

Hope that helps:)

[Philipp Sokolean]

Thanks Liam, I'm really considering it!

[Evans Briceño]

Guys, I am not as good in english as u native from Us. But I like to share my almost first profesional experience with my 7D (regard all those issues you mention in this post)
I'm creative director and director of a prodution house.

I happeng to shoot a developing drawing with an artist on a sand board for a Bank tv commercial. 20" 5 spots to be exact. We puted the camera cenital with a live monitoring Hd Ikan and spliter to YUV componet for client.

Here is the deal:

The drawing took 15 minutes to get it's best result. grabbing sand with fingers, pouring it to diferent areas of the (1.2mts x 80cm). The camera shoot 12 mins on a 16GB CF and just get turn off the rec system. We changed to a second 16GB CF, and let the camera document the growing picture. The camera at this point went well with the consecutive 12 mins. And Again I change the CF previus to pass the material to my computer. In the next 12 minutes, I got scared when Heating Warning appear around 5 minutes of recording. The drawing wasn't finish, so I decided to go on with the recording pushing with faith on my 7D, the warning was disturbing becouse the client was watching the same signal on the other room. Finally the camera at 10 minutes went off. For good.....After 5, 8, 10 minutes I tryed everything to reanimate the dead 7D...was unsuscessfull. I though the worst: The camera vanished. Again, I tryed at 15 minutes and it wake up....I decided was time to get back in business. But the warning show up 3 minutes later, I turn it off at least every 3 minutes for at least 1 min of rest. and again no more than 6 minutes of this, the camera died again. So in this horrible situacion with the client wondering our delay....I decide to call a rental house and get me a RED ONE cos there was'nt nothing more at that moment ( an EX1 or 3 for examp) . This camera the RED ONE, I have to say , it's no my favorite cos the slow process to work with and the weight. After expend 1 hour attaching to a barracuda with all the security measures for a simple cenital shoot, (7d took just minutes) . We shoot.. but , for my sorprise, it wasn't better compare with the 7D shots. No to mention the tendency to magenta color (you can fix with a IR). The 7D achived a texture in the sand that red had to fight to be the same, RED looks more plain without all the post saturation, gamma, black levels etc etc etc. 7D went just as it record it.

I have admit, it was to much to ask to a 7D shoot consecutive 12 minutes x 3. without put in risk the overheating. So I know I'm going to use it just for simple 1 minute o 3 maximun shots for a tradicional commercial. Just like Phillip Bloom (IoI). I have to say It worth the image result. its very good for my humble opinion but never going to try this extreme situasion with a client on my shoulder.

However I wondering if this all double monitoring was part of the overheating, cos when we change to the RED , I optimized the wasted time setting the 7D as second Camera, for the close shoots in tripod and Without the second monitor, jut the IKAn for our work. And I shoot at least max 5 minutes, turning off the 7D when completed a escene as we need it. And turn it on again for the next. Well....never show us the warning again on a 3 hours job. That make me suspicious and I going to test this again to see if the added equiment have to be resposable in part of this constant overheating.

I got the shots I got the commercials finished And I want to share some of this when the spots have been on air later next April.

thx all of you

sorry again this crap English.

[Mike Calla]

Perrone, guys, your patience and valuable input is always appreciated!