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Canon EOS Crop Sensor for HD
APS-C sensor cameras including the 80D, 70D, 7D Mk. II, 7D, EOS M and Rebel models for HD video recording.


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Old January 29th, 2010, 08:39 PM   #16
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If Canon removed photography features, the 7D would probably lose sales volume and the price could actually go up.

Always keep in mind that manufacturing cost and sales price don't always agree. My favorite example is when touch-tone phones first came into the market. Touch-tone switches were cheaper than mechanical dial-click switches. Yet, phone companies charges customers an extra dollar per month for touch-tone support. Crafty, eh? :)
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Old January 30th, 2010, 09:46 AM   #17
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I'd certainly like to have a 5D Mark II, but I went with the 7D due to cost, the frame rate options, and the slightly better UI (a button!) I was also thinking that a 5D Mark III might come sooner rather than later, but now I'm not so sure.

Last edited by Pete Bauer; January 30th, 2010 at 01:45 PM. Reason: rumors link removed
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Old January 30th, 2010, 10:29 AM   #18
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I bought the 7D because I like to do art type shorts and things look incredible if you don't have too much motion. Once things start moving, focus for me is very difficult on this camera. Taking "snippets" of events, nature, family life, is incredible. I don't want shallower DOF. Throw in the fact that its a good still camera, I'm very happy with the 7D.

Still want a good event camera, and may go with one of the new small camcorders by Sony or Canon.
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Old January 30th, 2010, 05:03 PM   #19
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I have both, although I use them more for photography than video. The 5D Mk. II is for wide-angle work and the 7D for telephoto. I have fallen head over heels for the 1D Mk. IV, it's in an entirely different class altogether. I can't justify buying one yet, but I'm thinking hard about it.

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Originally Posted by Bill Binder View Post
What I'm trying to get at (Canon are you listening?), is whether Canon is losing money because of the drawn out wait for the firmware. I personally know two people in this camp, and I was curious how many of you might also be in that camp (e.g., you would have happily paid $1000+ more for the 5D2 if it had the framerates...
No, they're probably not losing money if people buy the 7D instead of the 5D Mk. II -- we don't know what the profit margins are on these cameras, and as Nigel Barker points out, it's quite possible that the actual profit per unit is the same no matter which model or price point. Regardless, they are not competing with themselves. They will be happy to sell a 7D or a 5D Mk. II to you, or anything else they make.

Nor would it matter if you knew twenty people or one hundred in that camp, the simple fact is that these cameras are first and foremost *still photo* cameras and their primary market that buys the 5D Mk. II are photographers who might never use the video capabilities of the camera. You have to look at the big picture: the number of still photographers buying this camera exponentially dwarfs the number of videographers buying this camera, to a very large degree.
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Old January 30th, 2010, 06:30 PM   #20
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How cheap would the 7D be if many of the still photography features were stripped down/completely removed...
If you remove the still photography features from the 7D, then you wouldn't have a camera anymore.

The 7D, like all other D-SLRs in the Canon EOS product line, is first and foremost a still photography camera. It happens to have the ability to record HD video, but that's almost superfluous relative to the design and feature set of the 7D and other D-SLR cameras.

There are three primary physical features of any Canon EOS camera such as the 7D: the still photo EF lens mount, the mirror (which is what makes it a single-lens reflex camera in the first place), and the pentaprism above the mirror, which houses the viewfinder. None of those three things are required or desired on a video camera, and yet if you take them away from the 7D then you're left without a camera at all.

I think what you might be driving at, rather than taking away still photo features from a still photo camera, is perhaps an entirely new camera dedicated solely to video which is built around this particular image sensor. Such a thing would not have an EF lens mount, a mirror or a pentaprism, since it's not a photography camera. Therefore it wouldn't look anything like a 7D or any other D-SLR for that matter.

The trouble with making this kind of camcorder -- one that uses such a large sensor -- is providing a proper video lens and AF system that would make it suitable for videography. Unfortunately this won't happen anytime soon. I've explained the reasons why in much greater detail in my article here. Hope this helps,
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Old January 30th, 2010, 07:07 PM   #21
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My "upgrade to the 5D2" comment was a bad choice of words. Just for the record, I am very deep into the "primarily a stills photographer" camp, and I'm well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of Canon's entire lineup on that front. So, I should state that I have nothing against the 7D whatsoever, it's an awesome camera no doubt, and if I were to ever replace my 30D body, I would without a doubt replace it with a 7D. That said, I love my 5D2, and FF is my preference 99% of the time given what I'm into. What I was trying to convey, was for those who wanted a 5D2 to begin with (the folks who didn't want a 7D), of those folks who went for the 7D because of the framerates. I was coming from the perspective of folks who prefer the 5D2 but for the framerates, that's why I said upgrade, what I really meant was would they ditch the 7D and go back toward their primary preference or not once the firmware came out.

And that's a very good point on the profit vs. revenue comment. I still think this is a very undesirable situation for Canon, it's causing a lot of animosity and frustration, most of which is directly brought on by them because of the announcement. They wanted their cake and to eat it too (it will have the framerates, some day), they could have just as easily not announced and/or not made the change. And I would actually be fine with that, I will keep my 5D2 no matter what, but at least then folks could make decisions accordingly just like we do with all products like this. But the six month window with loads of uncertainty just feels lame in my book. They handled it wrong in my opinion.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 04:39 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
the number of still photographers buying this camera exponentially dwarfs the number of videographers buying this camera, to a very large degree.
i think this could be a little hard to measure or comment on from now on.. i was shooting a fashion show last week (with the 7d), i spoke with 3 photographers there who had 7ds who were all speaking very enthousiastically about their cameras video function, i would guess a factor in their purchase decision

Then i was shooting at a conference during the week (with the 7d) and 2 attendees came up to me telling me they'd bought the 7d too and were really excited about the video, i would guess from a more casual/consumer viewpoint.

Then last night i was at a dinner at friends and met someone working for an airline, who just coordinated a video with a filmmaker and was telling me how amazed that this guy shot with a DSLR (she thinks a 7d) and produced such beautiful images from it.

Im really suprised how quick this thing is spreading! It seems like theres many people, even with no connection to video making or photography are already aware of the phenomenon, we'd need some kind of official survey from Canon to actually know whos buying it for what reason.

(correct me if im wrong Chris or if anyone knows of such surveys or statistics would be interesting to hear..)

i know if i was responsible for either sales or product development for canon i'd be much more interested in knowing what percent of the camera/video aspect triggered the purchase decision than putting customers in a box of 'photographer' or 'videographer'. In my case it was about 95% / 5% video/photo but it seems for many others its more like 50/50 or 60/40.

Last edited by Manus Sweeney; January 31st, 2010 at 07:12 AM.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 11:28 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Bill Binder View Post
...the six month window with loads of uncertainty just feels lame in my book. They handled it wrong in my opinion.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. The six month window is a bit bewildering and totally out of character for their typical corporate policy, which is generally to release new product within 60 to 90 days of announcement (sometimes even shorter). In my opinion they should have sat on it until it's ready, and if it's ready now, what's the point of waiting for some industry "event" such as NAB or whatever. Just get it out there.

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Originally Posted by Manus Sweeney View Post
(correct me if im wrong Chris or if anyone knows of such surveys or statistics would be interesting to hear..)
I have no hard data to back up anything I've said here. I think we're all just speaking honestly but speculatively from our own experiences. The problem with that is, we all have different experiences!
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Old January 31st, 2010, 12:07 PM   #24
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Manus makes a great point. Most might buy the Canon for stills, but video can still be a big selling point. A local friend of mine is a professional photographer who is now expanding his business from still portraits to include video portraits. I don't think he would have chosen to buy a video camera, but by using his existing camera and lenses, it's really attractive.

When a stills shooter is shopping for their next camera, I'd guess that the video feature an important check box. And a little digging into reviews will unearth the comments from video shooters. Good reviews from us 0.1% of video purists might have a big impact on the 90% of people who read lots of reviews before they buy.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 12:20 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
I think we're all just speaking honestly but speculatively from our own experiences. The problem with that is, we all have different experiences!
thats definitely true.. lets just hope canon (and others) keep listening to us in the minority to keep bringing out great new tools (although i'm more than happy with my 7d!)
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Old January 31st, 2010, 01:33 PM   #26
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There could be many hidden reasons why they are holding back. One of many possibilities is that Canon has found a minor problem with the free firmware upgrade for the 5D and are at this moment reworking & proof testing prior to the new software release.

I am sitting on my hands at the moment, waiting for this year's updated full-frame hybrids from Nikon and Canon before emptying my bank balance. The 7D has ticked some positives for all of us in Pal-land, and I'm sure that the full-frame bodies from Canon & Nikon will soon follow suit.

"When?" is the question on most of our lips. Grumblings in the background are that Nikon is also holding back their intended release of the D700 & D3X upgrades to hybrid for later in the year.

I've just sold a tonne of pro stills gear and want to refill that void with hybrids...but neither Nikon or Canon are ticking all of my boxes; time is fast running out and I need to make a decision soon before the next major expedition.

And now the upgraded Canon XL-H1s is possibly on the horizon....so many decisions yet to make!

So many different options this year, and making the correct choices are slightly more difficult...but this also makes it all quite interesting and exciting... :)
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Old January 31st, 2010, 01:37 PM   #27
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I also bought my 7D for 95% video and 5% photo.

The reasons, 1080 24p.

I also use my XH-A1 as a second camera now.

Maybe wil be buying a 5D with the updated firmware or Scarlet if it ever comes out.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 02:30 PM   #28
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Manuel,

I'd love to see what you are turning out with the 7D and how you like working with it versus the A1 and your recent work using Red.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 01:07 PM   #29
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Hello Roger nice to talk to you!, I still own you the acueduct video, I'll soon upload it to vimeo. You can see some of my stuff here: Manuel Hernandez-Stumpfhauser on Vimeo

I like a lot the DOF of the 7D but I'm still not shure if it has greater image quality than the A1. I'm still using the A1 for wide open shots, fast whip shots and chroma keying.

I think that being careful we can still mix both cameras and with color grading they can coexist together.

The red obviously has better dynamic range, resolution and DOF than the 7D but it is very expensive to work with it here in Mexico. You have to hire a big and expensive crew and many local clients don't understand why they have to pay that much. And in addition, I still have to rent it, because for me it is very expensive to buy.

I just finished shooting with the 7D my version of the Canon's and Vincent Laforet contest "The story beyond the still". I think some images turned out quite spectacular and would never have achieved them with the A1.

I'll start editing it tonight and hopefully upload it next week to the contest page. vimeo.com/groups/beyondthestill

Regards,
Manuel
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 11:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
I think what you might be driving at, rather than taking away still photo features from a still photo camera, is perhaps an entirely new camera dedicated solely to video which is built around this particular image sensor.

I guess I could have been a lot clearer about things... I figure video people are buying teh 7D for similar reasons (the lens choices, the beautiful DOF, the price, the size, etc.) so why not a video camera based around these specific features, that uses a full-frame sensor (5DMkII) or even a crop sensor like the 7D, that has the capability of mounting the wide array of lenses used in the DSLR photography world (eliminating the need to ever have to purchase a lens adapter kit again). I know the RED Scarlet is going to be something similar, and will no doubt be an awesome video camera once it's released. I am also aware of all the issues that surround the DSLR sensors and the necessary functions of a good video camera (i.e. aperture and zooming, rolling shutter, etc.). It's all about dreaming up stuff that is way too hard to build and way too easy to use. Oh well...
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