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Canon EOS Crop Sensor for HD
APS-C sensor cameras including the 80D, 70D, 7D Mk. II, 7D, EOS M and Rebel models for HD video recording.


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Old September 11th, 2010, 10:17 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Alex Raskin View Post
I'm going to put on my flame-retardant suit and claim that the difference between the footage captured into Sony MPEG2 HDV Codec vs. Apple ProRes will not be noticeable under virtually all of the practical shooting situations.

Having said that, the EU unit looks kinda sexy.
No need for flame retardant suit ; ) I somewhat agree but if you are doing serious grading of keying you will notice a massive diff.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 10:29 PM   #17
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Clearly. But, for serious grading in post, who would start by acquiring images in 7D to begin with?

I capture directly into Cineform RAW at high quality settings (Q3, Q4 which corresponds to FilmScan 1 and up) with my SI2K cam.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 04:04 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Alex Raskin View Post
Clearly. But, for serious grading in post, who would start by acquiring images in 7D to begin with?

I capture directly into Cineform RAW at high quality settings (Q3, Q4 which corresponds to FilmScan 1 and up) with my SI2K cam.
Because not everyone has $50,000 to blow on a camera.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 08:27 PM   #19
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True that. I only could afford SI2K+lenses after a successful, nicely $$$'d Smithsonian's project.

As always is the case with the gear, you pay 95% of the price for the top 5% of the quality.

However, I do use Canon 7D as second cam extensively, and am very happy with it. Just don't rely on it for keying or extensive CC.

(BTW, SI2K Mini is not $50K, it's way less expensive, but after the glass, rigs, monitoring, capture PC, and audio, you will get to the $50K mark, yes.)
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Old September 13th, 2010, 07:16 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Alex Raskin View Post
I'm going to put on my flame-retardant suit and claim that the difference between the footage captured into Sony MPEG2 HDV Codec vs. Apple ProRes will not be noticeable under virtually all of the practical shooting situations. Even at 35Mps, Sony codec has no detectable motion artifacts. The main difference *may* be in the red bleeds in favor of ProRes, but not at normal viewing - you'll have to zoom 3x or more to see it.

Having said that, the EU unit looks kinda sexy.
Hi Alex

No flaming here, but would appreciate your clarification. Are you suggesting that HDV recorded onto miniDV tape by a Sony V1 would be the same quality as an uncompressed signal from a V1 output via HDMI and captured as ProRes by something like a Atomos?

I'd always assumed that the V1 was a great little camera only handicapped by the format it recorded(HDV)...

Cheers, Simon
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Old September 13th, 2010, 12:23 PM   #21
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In short, yes (for almost all purposes with TV as delivery media.)

HDV is a very good format, with better compression than now-popular AVCHD (especially if we are talking Sony HDV compression algorithm. Now, granted, HDV is 1440, so you WILL see a bit of a resolution loss... but read on for other quality factors that may be even more important.)

So motion artifacts will show much less in HDV footage.

With V1/Z5/Z7 the main quality limiting factor IMHO would be the lens and the latitude of its sensor, so if you capture into ProRes even before in-cam compression, the quality difference will be very minimal.

Actually I did this same trick four years ago with another Sony cams, FX1/Z1. At the time there was much debate whether their component analog out is true HD and uncompressed. It was proven that yes it was; but I was the first person AFAIK to actually build a rig to capture that signal into uncompressed AVI on location. Caused quite a stir, with Sony calling me etc.

Result? Very little practical improvement over in-camera signal.

Having said that, V1U/Z5U/Z7U deliver fantastic image quality with in-cam recording for controlled situations like indoor talking heads closeups. IMO, you could easily use it as 2nd cam with ANY other first cam. But then again, there is Canon 7D (which is limited by 12min recording length at a time though...)
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Old September 13th, 2010, 01:20 PM   #22
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The monitored image is both letterboxed and pillarboxed within the HD frame, so the frame size is smaller than HD. You could theoretically capture it and blow it up but what would be the point.
And that's what I thought. But....

There is a guy who says he routinely uses 7Ds on jibs and for live switched recordings, by feeding their HDMI out to SDI switchers.

If so, signal must be at least acceptable that way??
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Old September 13th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #23
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Bob certainly is enthusiastic but I noticed a number of posts in there that required clarification from others--he seems fond of tossing out enticing nuggets. Sounds like they are making a line cut to use as reference for the final cut later, although without matching time code it doesn't seem much worth it. No voodoo there, they are seeing the same reduced size output from their 7D's as everyone else.

But it was, uh, interesting learning about the specs of the 1DSMKIV in his last post.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 03:49 PM   #24
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I suppose if I put 7D on a jib, I'd run two cables: one HDMI, one USB.

USB to EOS utility would allow me to control all the settings and start/stop recording. Recording would happen in-camera on the CF card though.

HDMI would be for monitoring only (I don't think you can effectively do that solely over EOS Live View with video signal.)

What do you think.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 11:21 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Charles Papert View Post
Bob certainly is enthusiastic
Here's another enthusiastic (premonistic?) dude, I quote: "I've just preordered the Atomos Ninja HDMI recorder because I know for a fact that the new generation of DSLR/Camcorders are going to pump out a full raster 1080 signal and I can simply bypass the need for on camera recording. "

Source: 5DtoRGB test comparison with MPEG Streamclip on Vimeo
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Old September 13th, 2010, 11:33 PM   #26
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Well, it's going to happen eventually of course--the question is when. I mean, I even have some insider knowledge on this but I wouldn't bother announcing it--every spec and deadline is subject to change. What's the point?

Some people will crow about their message-board predictions that materialize ("See, I called it") but few will admit to their misses. Lot of RED fans with egg on their faces at the moment, I think.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 11:50 PM   #27
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It is also likely that, together with the unhindered HDMI-out, other changes may be introduced... such as better in-cam codec... so capturing to the external device would be a moot point...

Speaking of premonitions. Is there such thing as aftermonition?
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Old September 14th, 2010, 05:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Alex Raskin View Post
In short, yes (for almost all purposes with TV as delivery media.)

HDV is a very good format, with better compression than now-popular AVCHD (especially if we are talking Sony HDV compression algorithm. Now, granted, HDV is 1440, so you WILL see a bit of a resolution loss... but read on for other quality factors that may be even more important.)

So motion artifacts will show much less in HDV footage.

With V1/Z5/Z7 the main quality limiting factor IMHO would be the lens and the latitude of its sensor, so if you capture into ProRes even before in-cam compression, the quality difference will be very minimal.

Actually I did this same trick four years ago with another Sony cams, FX1/Z1. At the time there was much debate whether their component analog out is true HD and uncompressed. It was proven that yes it was; but I was the first person AFAIK to actually build a rig to capture that signal into uncompressed AVI on location. Caused quite a stir, with Sony calling me etc.

Result? Very little practical improvement over in-camera signal.

Having said that, V1U/Z5U/Z7U deliver fantastic image quality with in-cam recording for controlled situations like indoor talking heads closeups. IMO, you could easily use it as 2nd cam with ANY other first cam. But then again, there is Canon 7D (which is limited by 12min recording length at a time though...)
Interesting stuff Alex, thanks for the detailed response
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Old September 20th, 2010, 09:42 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Charles Papert View Post
The monitored image is both letterboxed and pillarboxed within the HD frame, so the frame size is smaller than HD. You could theoretically capture it and blow it up but what would be the point.
Charles, is there a way to get rid of the letterbox or the pillabox? I am wasting about 25% of my monitor's resolution because of this annoying fact. Also, is there a way to remove the AF point box? I can't find a way to do it.
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Old September 20th, 2010, 10:57 PM   #30
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Their website is claiming that the Vimeo video was shot on a 7D?
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