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Canon EOS Crop Sensor for HD
APS-C sensor cameras including the 80D, 70D, 7D Mk. II, 7D, EOS M and Rebel models for HD video recording.


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Old September 24th, 2010, 01:07 PM   #1
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B-Camera to work with 7D

I need a CAMCORDER, a video camera that is NOT a DSLR, that can shoot 24P that is compatible with the 24P footage shot with a 7D in a FCP 23.976 timeline.

I have a year long project that involves shots that I would like to use a less expensive Camcorder with my 7D and unfortunately I have not paid much attention to the development of the newer lo-cost camcorders so I'm hoping you guys have some good suggestions.

I'd like to spend no more than $2,000, I realize the T2i and 60D are less than that, but I need a camcorder that is easy to use by someone who has never and probably will never use a DSLR.

My father-in-law has the small [I believe its the preceding version] of the Canon VIXIA HV20 I shot a little with that, amazing picture quality for such a small inexpensive camera but there was some weirdness going on when I tried editing the 24P with my 7D footage. Certainly could have been user error.

Anyway, I hope this is enough information to get help with the problem I'm trying to solve.

Thanks
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Old September 24th, 2010, 01:13 PM   #2
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I found it is the lenses that cause problems for me. I can easily get profiles to be similar but cheap camcorder lenses are way off from my L lenses.

A better alternative is to use the T2i but set it to full auto - AF and Aperture priority setting, then all your assistant is left with is pressing the button!

I know this is sinful (full auto) but you will get a perfect match and can swop lenses. And its a cheap investment.
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Old September 25th, 2010, 01:23 AM   #3
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Hi Chuck,

I've successfully inter-cut footage from the 7D with the HV30. If you go that route, be sure to set the camera to "HDV24" and after you capture your footage process it with either Compressor or Neo Scene and perform a detelecine operation to it. This will extract your 1080p 23.976 footage from it's 1080i wrapper.
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Old September 25th, 2010, 02:41 AM   #4
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Though I don't own one, I have a bunch of hours using the Panny hmc40. Fits in your budget and takes amazingly good video. Just finished an hour long documentary where all but two interviews were shot on it. The T2i with a 50mm 1.4 shot the other two and while I had to do a bit of tweaking color-wise in post, the footage works very well together.
Also, it shoots 24p where a lot of the consumer cams don't.
Hope this helps!
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Old September 25th, 2010, 06:17 AM   #5
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Chuck,
My main cameras are (were) a Canon XLH1 and 2 XHA1's. I'm able to intercut fairly well with the 7d, especially when I do the following:
1- 7D on "neutral" and the h1 and a1 with factory preset. That leaves everything neutral.
2- I often use the kelvin dial which is similar on all the canons. This way you can get very close on the color temps of both cameras.

You can get a very clean, used, low usge XHA1 for 2k or under.
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Old September 25th, 2010, 11:21 AM   #6
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Chuck, the HV20/30/now 40 is a great little camcorder, but it's HDV, meaning it's 1440x1080, and it's the last consumer camera Canon makes that uses tape.

For just a little more, Canon has more than one model in the Vixia series that uses SD cards and shoots full 1920x1080 and at 24 fps. I don't keep up on all the model numbers, but go to B&H and look. They have all of them, and last time I checked the prices were from around $800 to around $1300. Sometimes the pricier model is the same thing but with more internal storage or something.

Actually I just looked at B&H, and here's one for$900:
Canon VIXIA HF21 Dual Flash Memory Camcorder 4060B001 - B&H

Since your main camera is the 7D, I think it would be best to stick with full HD instead of HDV and 24p (23.98) as well as a file based system. My experience with most consumer cameras is that out of the box they're oversaturated. However, Canon usually gives you enough image control to turn that down. You should be able to get a close match, in terms of color.

Most of those cameras are designed to work on automatic, and they do a much better job than you'd expect. While the better quality ones usually have some manual controls, those controls are not always the easiest to use.

Another thing you could do is look for a good, low mileage XH A1. I have intercut XH A1 footage with a 7D before, even though the XH A1 is HDV. The footage can be imported to ProRes422 and looks amazingly good--However, it is noticeably softer and grainier than equivalent footage from the 7D. Exterior shots under good light look noticeably better than interiors under mostly available light. But, while you can see the difference in quality, the audience never notices--they're not sitting with their eyes a foot away from a high res professional monitor for days and days looking at any tiny imperfection.

At any rate, my feeling is that it would be best to stick with a Canon camcorder, regardless of which model you get. They all seem to have a look that can be manipulated to intercut with all the others. I've seen one documentary recently that intercuts 7D with XH A1 with HV30, and it all looks pretty good. Another factor to consider is the experience level of the person using the camera. The XH A1 takes some expertise, whereas the consumer models are designed for the novice--if you can teach the person a bit about composition and to keep his hands off the zoom, then the consumer model might be the best thing.
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Old October 10th, 2010, 08:44 AM   #7
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I have mixed 7D/550D footage with JVC HM100 very sucessfully. Can do all the same frame rates, sizes and manual adjustments. Obviously no lens choices but works brilliantly for interviews and run and gun with an interview mic
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Old October 10th, 2010, 11:03 AM   #8
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I have a 7D and I bought the Panasonic TM700, which is a great little camcorder and shoots 60p if you need it.
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Old October 13th, 2010, 11:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Pryor View Post
Chuck, the HV20/30/now 40 is a great little camcorder, but it's HDV, meaning it's 1440x1080, and it's the last consumer camera Canon makes that uses tape.

For just a little more, Canon has more than one model in the Vixia series that uses SD cards and shoots full 1920x1080 and at 24 fps. I don't keep up on all the model numbers, but go to B&H and look. They have all of them, and last time I checked the prices were from around $800 to around $1300. Sometimes the pricier model is the same thing but with more internal storage or something.

Actually I just looked at B&H, and here's one for$900:
Canon VIXIA HF21 Dual Flash Memory Camcorder 4060B001 - B&H

Since your main camera is the 7D, I think it would be best to stick with full HD instead of HDV and 24p (23.98) as well as a file based system. My experience with most consumer cameras is that out of the box they're oversaturated. However, Canon usually gives you enough image control to turn that down. You should be able to get a close match, in terms of color.

Most of those cameras are designed to work on automatic, and they do a much better job than you'd expect. While the better quality ones usually have some manual controls, those controls are not always the easiest to use.

Another thing you could do is look for a good, low mileage XH A1. I have intercut XH A1 footage with a 7D before, even though the XH A1 is HDV. The footage can be imported to ProRes422 and looks amazingly good--However, it is noticeably softer and grainier than equivalent footage from the 7D. Exterior shots under good light look noticeably better than interiors under mostly available light. But, while you can see the difference in quality, the audience never notices--they're not sitting with their eyes a foot away from a high res professional monitor for days and days looking at any tiny imperfection.

At any rate, my feeling is that it would be best to stick with a Canon camcorder, regardless of which model you get. They all seem to have a look that can be manipulated to intercut with all the others. I've seen one documentary recently that intercuts 7D with XH A1 with HV30, and it all looks pretty good. Another factor to consider is the experience level of the person using the camera. The XH A1 takes some expertise, whereas the consumer models are designed for the novice--if you can teach the person a bit about composition and to keep his hands off the zoom, then the consumer model might be the best thing.
Thanks everyone for the responses.

This camera is sort of a crash cam, we hope it will survive but we're not that worried if it doesn't.

We got the TM700 and although it has a great picture, and after a bit of tweaking the colors match quite well, it has these funky recording formats. Panasonic seems to go out of their way to avoid 24P and 30P with this camera. I thought this camera recorded progressive but apparently it records only interlaced.

For our needs we can make it work but we should have probably gone with the HMC40.

Bill Thanks for such a detailed response. I think the XH A1 is probably the best HDV camera available, unfortunately as good as it is you just get the noise that's inherent in HDV. I should have looked closer at the new VIXIA consumer camcorders though.
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Old October 14th, 2010, 01:43 PM   #10
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I'm looking for a CAMCORDER to supplement my EX3 and 7D too.

I've more or less narrowed it down to Canon Vixia HF S21 or the Panasonic TM700, and your comment about it recording interlaced has hit the nail on the head Chuck! In my case I really need 25p - although 50p at 1080 (60p in your case) sounds very tempting from the reviews I've read on just how sharp it is, and at 28Mbps too (if I can get my head round how I'd edit it that is). But I'd missed that the Panny does not record in it's other formats progressively, but interlaced....hmm. Not sure I like the sound of that.

I handled the Canon yesterday and it sure has a lovely screen on it - and it'll do 1920x1080 at 25p (in PAL land according to the Canon UK website) at 24Mbps (the max the standard AVCHD spec allows I think). Also, what is the difference between the Legria and the Vixia (or is that how they differentiate PAL from the USA etc. model destinations?)

Link to a good review site that compares both below

http://www.camcorderinfo.co.uk/conte...Comparison.htm
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Old October 14th, 2010, 05:54 PM   #11
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The thing I find odd about the the TM700, is the length Panasonic goes in the manual to avoid any comparison or mention of frame rate. Did Panasonic develop AVCHD? And yet every time this is mentioned it states that the TM700 is AVCHD COMPLIANT.

Now that we have it, we'll make this camera work, but if it can't record progressive then its a pretty disappointing camera.

I'm not sure if the Canon HF series records progressive 24P, 25P, or 30P either. I guess I just assumed that all new cameras could do this???
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Old October 15th, 2010, 06:08 AM   #12
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I'm only interested in 1080p so with the TM700 I only shoot 60p and I do find the picture far better than my older Canon HV30.

I transcode the TM700 footage with Neoscene the same as I do for my 7D and edit the .avi file in Sony Vegas. I render the footage to a Quicktime movie using photo jpeg at 29.97fps. I have also cranked the shutter to 1/120th for slow mo and slowed the footage down in After Effects and it looked very good.

The camera I'm going to take a good look at is the Panasonic AG-AF100, I might get one.
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