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Canon EOS Crop Sensor for HD
APS-C sensor cameras including the 80D, 70D, 7D Mk. II, 7D, EOS M and Rebel models for HD video recording.


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Old September 29th, 2010, 09:20 AM   #1
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Zeiss Compact Primes on T2i?

Hello all,

I'm extremely excited about the Zeiss Compact Primes with the Canon EF mounts, but I'm wondering if those will work with the T2i? It says that they're compatible with the full frame HDSLRs, so does that mean that they would only be usable on the 5D? Thanks in advance.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 10:23 AM   #2
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I've had the luxury to 'play' with a few Carl Zeiss Compact Primes recently. They were mounted on a 7D, so that'll more or less guarantee you that they'll work just as well on the T2i/550D, or any other crop-sensor Canon camera with EF-mount.

If you do get a chance to mount one of the gorgeous (and pretty expensive) Compact Primes on your T2i, please share some pictures with us. I'd love to see the imbalance of a big 3.000 euro cine-lens on a small 650 euro DSLR-body. I wish I brought my own 550D along that day ;-)
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Old September 29th, 2010, 10:40 AM   #3
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Any lens that fits the 5D will fit on the crop cameras (the reverse is not always true). However, these lenses will alias like crazy. No way I'd spend that kind of money to shoot video with them. Stills maybe. But not video.

I think Barry Green already did some testing with these on the Canon body and found the same. They aliased like nobody's business.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 10:58 AM   #4
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Thanks Perrone, actually I'd probably never buy any of the lenses, I'd just rent. I'll look up Barry's tests and see what I can find. If you have links that would be great.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 11:13 AM   #5
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Im looking but not finding. I'll send Barry a message. Maybe it was someone else, but I could have SWORN he had tested and posted results from his Zeiss...
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Old September 29th, 2010, 12:34 PM   #6
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Perrone,

So lenses play a role in aliasing? I thought it didn't play a role and that its a sensor and readout method issue.

You have an idea as to the principle behind this? Is it because those particular lenses are "too sharp"? -this "clogs" the sensor with "too much" data?

Ted
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Old September 29th, 2010, 01:43 PM   #7
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Essentially, yes. The issue with the aliasing is that there is a ton of detail for the sensor to deal with. This is why aliasing and moire are lessened with softening filters on the lens, or with a different OLPF. Lenses that are less sharp cause less of a problem.

If you note the biggest group complaining about aliasing on these cameras are the one's who are shooting the VERY sharp "L" glass and other high end glass. Those of us shooting with vintage glass barely notice anything. The fact is, in video mode, the glass made in the 1960s outresolves the sensor easily. Perhaps not in stills mode though.



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Originally Posted by Ted Ramasola View Post
Perrone,

So lenses play a role in aliasing? I thought it didn't play a role and that its a sensor and readout method issue.

You have an idea as to the principle behind this? Is it because those particular lenses are "too sharp"? -this "clogs" the sensor with "too much" data?

Ted
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Old September 29th, 2010, 02:08 PM   #8
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Very interesting!! Now I don't have to feel so bad about not being able to afford L lenses :)
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Old September 30th, 2010, 06:33 PM   #9
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Perrone, isn't the aliasing thing is a red herring?

Many people, myself included, shoot with Zeiss ZE or ZF lenses. They don't cause any more aliasing than any other crisp lens. For instance, a well-focused Nifty Fifty at f/8 can be pretty darn sharp. Compact Primes use the same glass as ZE and ZF lenses, though they may be "binned" and more accurately installed for the very best performance.

The real advantages of Compact Primes are the long focus ring throw, the calibrated markings, the consistent size of the focus and aperture rings from lens to lens, and the ability to use a Preston remote on both the focus and the smooth aperture ring. With the calibrated markings, you can measure the distance from the lens to the subject with a tape measure, dial it in, and the focus puller never has to glance at a monitor.

All that said, I think CP lenses are a great way to go on the full frame 5D2 for narrative shoots with a pro focus puller, if you can rent or afford them.

For crop cameras for use in a Hollywood-style narrative environment, I would spend the money on a PL mount conversion. You can then rent any number of cine lenses, including matched primes and ultra-wide - even on a crop sensor - glass.

CP lenses don't come in matched aperture sets, don't go ultra-wide on a crop cam, and aren't available in zooms (hence the word, "prime"). A PL mount would open up a huge range of pro possibilities.

On the other hand, if you shoot with a loupe and judge focus on the screen, a cine lens just adds size and cost with little benefit.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 06:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst View Post
Perrone, isn't the aliasing thing is a red herring?

Many people, myself included, shoot with Zeiss ZE or ZF lenses. They don't cause any more aliasing than any other crisp lens.
Which is precisely why I said, "the biggest group complaining about aliasing on these cameras are the one's who are shooting the VERY sharp "L" glass and other high end glass". The issue is not with Zeiss glass. The issue with with VERY sharp lenses, which is a group the Zeiss lenses happen to be a part of.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 09:07 PM   #11
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Personally, I think the aliasing has more to do with the content than the lenses. I have mostly non-L primes at home and ZEs at work. I've gotten great images with both and aliasing with both. Sometimes I use a Glimmerglass #1 or #3, and even then, if the scene is "wrong" I get aliasing.

One reason people with top glass might complain about aliasing more is this correlation: the people who spend the big bucks on glass care a lot about image quality. Not to say that budget glass owners don't, but they might not be as obsessed as a group.

Anyway, the big difference I see with the ZE lenses on video is when I absolutely nail the focus on the eyes. Since the face is organic, aliasing doesn't show up all that badly. I just don't seem to get the same sparkle with my EF primes. On the other hand, if the focus wasn't perfect, the video images are no better than from the EF.

My point is that aliasing isn't a significant reason to avoid CP lenses on a crop cam. The cost, weight, size, and lack of an ultrawide are much more significant in day to day use. And, if the user isn't setting focus with a tape measure or using Preston remotes, they're missing the whole point of a cine lens.

If people want CP.2 lenses for the optics, go for ZF or ZE lenses. They're lighter, smaller, and cheaper than CP.2s, have nice focus rings in their own right, and have virtually the same glass. The only reason to upgrade to the CP.2 line is for the cine features.

But, as I mentioned previously, at those prices, I'd rather pay for a PL mount if I just had to have cine features on a crop cam. It opens up a whole new world. It even allows for use of pro anamorphic lenses.

But back on the aliasing front, I think it's reasonable to argue not to go overboard for optics in pursuit of sharpness. 1080p and aliasing really limit how sharp and accurate the end result would be.

On the other hand, nice glass offers more than just sharpness, for instance, low CA, a smooth focus ring with long travel, less coma, less flare, better bokeh, ruggedness, and little corner falloff. But you can get all that in a ZE lens. You don't need a CP.2.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 10:45 PM   #12
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Well stated Jon. I just have a VERY hard time recommending the purchase of a $5k lens to be used on one of these SLRs. If there is an eye toward hiher end production, then maybe. But for the guy doing the corporate training video, weddinngs, etc., I just can't see the utility of it.

I also don't want to have to buy thousands of dollars worth of glass, and then need glimmerglass in front of it. By the way, how do you like that #3? I bought one this summer but haven't used it yet.
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Old October 7th, 2010, 06:13 PM   #13
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I find that the GG#1 can be used without affecting the image much at all. The GG#3 is more for effects shots. We did a faux wedding scene recently using the EF 200/2.8L II with the GG#3, and it definitely has a "mistier" look than our "naked" footage, which was mostly shot with the ZE 35/2 and the ZE 85/1.4.

Just so I don't give the wrong impression, the 200L is razor sharp. The "mist" was definitely due to the Glimmer Glass filter. It's not a Canon vs. Zeiss thing.

I should try crushing the blacks more on the wedding scene to see if I can retain some anti-aliasing while getting rid of some of the "mist".

BTW, if you want to see some extreme diffusion, take a look at one of the old Deep Space 9 TV episodes. The DP on that show loved to put light sources in the background and coarse diffusers in the matte box - and that was for the "normal" scenes. When they show Odo, the shape shifter, or a female lead, it's a bit more diffuse, and when they visit the "worm hole aliens", it's pure, light-refracting mush! :)
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