help me understand rolling shutter at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon EOS Crop Sensor for HD

Canon EOS Crop Sensor for HD
APS-C sensor cameras including the 80D, 70D, 7D Mk. II, 7D, EOS M and Rebel models for HD video recording.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 1st, 2011, 02:50 PM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Posts: 188
help me understand rolling shutter

I've read a few things on the rolling shutter problem that DSLRs suffer from and I'm still not 100% sure what to be careful of.

From what Ive gathered, is it only problematic with strobes, camera flashes, flashing/blinking lights, and fast movement?

Is there any way around the rolling shutter?
Lee Tamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 1st, 2011, 03:00 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 528
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Almost all pans unless done really slow will cause rolling shutter on the 7D.
This and the bad moire effects convinced me that for general shooting DSLR's are not for me. Great for interviews and controlled environments but as a doc maker you can never always plan where you shoot. Not sure if these can be overcome now or in the future. I know there was a plugin for final cut to deal with rolling shutter in post - or actually I think it was for iMovie!
Jon Braeley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 1st, 2011, 05:12 PM   #3
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Posts: 188
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Oh, ok, so it really depends on what you shoot? I'm only planning on doing interviews and narrative shorts
Lee Tamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 1st, 2011, 05:24 PM   #4
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 528
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

I think rolling shutter is not as bad as Moire - its not as distinct because most rolling shutter occurs when the camera is in motion.

For example last year as part of a documentary I filmed at a gym but unfortunately it was on a trampoline ... and the entire segment is unusable because the movement in the trampoline springs caused really bad moire patterns. Even heavy woodgrain can cause this.

This was one of those moments that put the last nail in the coffin for my DSLR work. I have the FS-100 being delivered this week.
Jon Braeley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 1st, 2011, 07:24 PM   #5
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Posts: 188
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Did you use any type of stabilizer, it sounds like a glide cam or something similar couldve fixed it. But a trampoline seems like an extreme case
Lee Tamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 1st, 2011, 07:47 PM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal
Posts: 388
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

The rolling shutter of my 7D was bad enough that I bought Foundry's plugin. It is the progressive scanning of fields downward the sensor, top to bottom and the delay causes the frames to be "bent". Or however you want to explain it.

There tutorials out there to fix it, and you surely can write your own script with a little bit of time with some after effects know how. Im sure there's plugins for FCP and Vegas as well.
Justin Molush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2011, 01:37 AM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Camas, WA, USA
Posts: 5,513
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Tamer View Post
Oh, ok, so it really depends on what you shoot? I'm only planning on doing interviews and narrative shorts
For interviews it's a non-issue. Moire is a bigger issue with interviews. If they wear men's dress shirts (corporate), ask them to wear a high-thread-count shirt. I typically shoot about eight to ten feet away with an 85mm lens on a 5D2, and shirts with coarse fabric really dance around.

For narrative, rolling shutter is worst when there is no dominant object tracked to draw the eye and when there are straight vertical lines. If you track a person or moving object and the background is organic, the audience won't notice, unless they're camera nerds. ;)
__________________
Jon Fairhurst
Jon Fairhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2011, 08:13 AM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 528
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Working on fiction you can plan for these things - yes....please go change your shirt...wardrobe!!
As a doc maker I have no choice.
One time I had to shoot a head shot because the woman wore a bad pattern dress and it danced like crazy.

For a doc maker the small DSLR form is great - but I would not consider using one again in an uncontrolled situation. Just too many problems to overcome and you simply do not have the time in documentary work ... and don't even get me started on the audio problem...!!
Jon Braeley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2011, 10:16 AM   #9
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Posts: 188
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst View Post
If you track a person or moving object and the background is organic, the audience won't notice, unless they're camera nerds. ;)
Organic, you mean nothing in the background like buildings?

I'm mostly worried about dolly shots or crane shots.
Lee Tamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2011, 12:42 PM   #10
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Mateo, CA
Posts: 3,840
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Right, vertical lines in buildings and fencelines and such will 'smear' or 'wiggle like jello' when the camera is panned or dollies too fast.
Richard Alvarez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2011, 12:54 PM   #11
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: LOWESTOFT - UK
Posts: 2,125
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Very tricky for aviation use where propellers and rotor blades can be really horrible.
Paul R Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2011, 03:06 PM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 110
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Take a look at this video:

YouTube - ‪Austin Horse Rides San Francisco‬‏ (If you don't wanna watch the whole piece skip to about 0:57)

Obviously, this kind of action is hard to shoot with a DSLR. I feel like watching the edit of this video (and my footage) I understand shutter roll (and how to work around it) a bit better.
__________________
Brilliant Champions | Gallery Hijinks
Joe Lumbroso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2011, 03:48 PM   #13
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Posts: 188
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lumbroso View Post
Obviously, this kind of action is hard to shoot with a DSLR. I feel like watching the edit of this video (and my footage) I understand shutter roll (and how to work around it) a bit better.
Oh yeah I definitely see what you mean. really fast motion. I can see how it could be problematic with documentary work like the example shown, but for narratives it seems like an easier problem to control.

Im starting to see what to avoid.
Lee Tamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3rd, 2011, 05:48 AM   #14
New Boot
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 11
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lumbroso View Post
Take a look at this video:

YouTube - ‪Austin Horse Rides San Francisco‬‏ (If you don't wanna watch the whole piece skip to about 0:57)

Obviously, this kind of action is hard to shoot with a DSLR. I feel like watching the edit of this video (and my footage) I understand shutter roll (and how to work around it) a bit better.
Thanks for the link. Good example.
Andy Popple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2011, 06:55 AM   #15
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 528
Re: help me understand rolling shutter

There is a glut of video out there recently from all the new DSLR shooters that exhibit horrible problems and its almost as if the photographers are either unaware of the problem or unable to edit out the footage. A lot of unnaceptable stuff I cannot watch.

Now I have to put this down to the enormous amount of unexperienced filmmakers that are able to join the indie filmmaking bandwagon due to the lower price of admission. There's nothing wrong with that at all. It's really great to have young eager filmmakers.
But when you pay over a years salary for a camera like I have done in the past, you tend to not compromise and you set a higher goal to reach. It lifts your game. Having said that some great work has been done on 5D's and 7D's.

So I say if you are using a DSLR please know its limits which are many. If like me you cannot afford to work in those limits you get a F3. Its now possible for $5k to get a FS-100 shooting on 35mm... and without the DSLR's this amazing camera would not have been made!
Jon Braeley is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon EOS Crop Sensor for HD

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:40 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network