60d 7D proof

Edward Mendoza · August 10th, 2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Barker

The T3i/600D is a better camera than the T2i/550D as it has an articulated screen, manual audio control & HD 3x crop mode.

Yah, I wasn't too familiar with Canon's most recent releases, but they certainly sound like good options as well, adding some of those new, crucial features.

What's peoples experiences with the 3x crop mode? I was just getting used to the 1.6x crop when this came out. At this point you're losing some serious wide angle, I'd imagine.

John Wiley · August 10th, 2011, 05:18 PM

With the 3x crop mode you do lose a lot of width, but that is the whole point! If you want wide angle, you don't switch it on. You can turn your 200mm lens into a 600mm equivelant lens at the click of a few buttons. Alternatively, you can use your standard zoom lens as a telephoto lens to save some money.

There is a catch, though: You need to have sharp lenses - really sharp lenses - in order to avoid softness.

One crucial thing that has not been mentioned so far: The 60D has dual control wheels which give it a big advantage over the t2i & t3i. With my t2i, I have to look away from my LCD viewfinder in order to make sure I hit the right button to adjust aperture. With the 60D, both control wheels (one for aperture, one for shutterspeed) are positioned right where your forefinger and thumb rest, and cannot easily be mistaken for any other button. The 7D & 5Dmkii also have dual wheels, but the 60D is the cheapest model to offer this feature.

Nigel Barker · August 11th, 2011, 04:17 AM

It's important to realise the 3X HD crop mode uses the centre portion of the 18megapixel sensor so it is not like a regular digital zoom that just enlarges the pixels. There is no loss of resolution & because there is no line skipping when using this mode problems of moire & aliasing are avoided. It does mean that with a smaller effective sensor that the camera in this mode you cannot achieve the cool arty shallow depth of focus seen in normal mode.

John Wiley · August 11th, 2011, 06:03 AM

Nigel, I think it's worth mentioning that while the crop mode should not itself lead to softness, it does make any lens flaws more apparent - like when you see those 100% crops in a lens review.

So, if you don't have sharp lenses then using the 3x crop mode can really highlight their problems.

Edward Mendoza · August 11th, 2011, 11:28 AM

I see, said the blind man. So it's not really a smaller sensor but rather a feature that crops a portion of the sensor, yes?

John Wiley · August 11th, 2011, 09:38 PM

That's right Edward. It is a feature which can be switched off. The actual t3i sensor is (almost?) identical to that used in the t2i, it's just you have the added option of only using part of the sensor when you choose to.

Nigel Barker · August 12th, 2011, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wiley

The actual t3i sensor is (almost?) identical to that used in the t2i

The sensor in the T3i/600D is identical to that in the T2i/550D, 60D & the 7D.

Kin Lau · August 12th, 2011, 07:11 AM

I got my T3i mainly for the 3x tele-crop feature, since my main interest is wildlife/birds. I already have the 7D.

The articulating LCD is _very_ useful, audio control is useful too. I don't find the loss of the rear control wheel to be such a big deal - I've had several in the Rebel series w/o the rear wheel, and it's just very easy to hit that AV button while turning the front wheel. When shooting stills, I do appreciate the rear wheel on my 1D, 1Ds & 7D.

Sam Kanter · August 12th, 2011, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Barker

That is just rubbish. We have been shooting video for 2.5 years on the 5DII on stock firmware. There are plenty of people who find it too unstable & not really useful e.g. Philip Bloom & Dan Chung to name two well known DSLR video shooters. The features in Magic Lantern if it were stable are nice to have but not essential.

I find the features in ML totally essential, not just "nice" - especially the audio features and focusing tools. I have had zero problems with stability - but I'm using the 60D version, not the 5DII version. It's possible Bloom et al may have been testing alpha or beta versions that were not yet stable. Usually a release version has been tested by hundreds of users for stability before release.

In any case, I don't really care much what Bloom and Chung say. I usually try things for myself as I have with ML, not depend on others. There are thousands of 7D/video users who are drowning in their own tears, wishing they could have ML on their cameras, but it is not meant to be. I would try it yourself before dismissing it, unless you have a 7D. Of course, it is not 100% safe, and there are no guarantees - many are afraid to try it, which is understandable. Take a look at the menus here:

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Unified

Edward Mendoza · August 12th, 2011, 09:33 PM

I think Nigel's point is that there've been plenty of people who've managed without it, including 7D users. It sounds, though, like it would definitely be worth trying. I, personally, am a little fearful of an off-party firmware with my only DSLR. Can't afford to take any chances.

Justin Molush · August 12th, 2011, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Kanter

There are thousands of 7D/video users who are drowning in their own tears, wishing they could have ML on their cameras, but it is not meant to be. I would try it yourself before dismissing it, unless you have a 7D.

Not really drowning in sorrow.... it just means my 7D is the BRoll beauty shot without audio that I cut to during a voiceover haha

Nigel Barker · August 13th, 2011, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Kanter

I find the features in ML totally essential, not just "nice" - especially the audio features and focusing tools. I have had zero problems with stability - but I'm using the 60D version, not the 5DII version. It's possible Bloom et al may have been testing alpha or beta versions that were not yet stable. Usually a release version has been tested by hundreds of users for stability before release.

In any case, I don't really care much what Bloom and Chung say. I usually try things for myself as I have with ML, not depend on others. There are thousands of 7D/video users who are drowning in their own tears, wishing they could have ML on their cameras, but it is not meant to be. I would try it yourself before dismissing it, unless you have a 7D. Of course, it is not 100% safe, and there are no guarantees - many are afraid to try it, which is understandable. Take a look at the menus here:

Unified - Magic Lantern Firmware Wiki

I have tried the two different versions of Magic Lantern for the 5DII & they are far too unstable for use where you have no opportunity to re-shoot if the camera locks up.

I have recently bought a 600D/T3i & have been testing Magic Lantern on that & it does indeed seem stable for at least so far I haven't had to pull the battery out to regain control. It looks a far more accomplished & finished version than that available for the 5DII. The features look nice especially Magic Focus & restart to work around the 12 minute recording limit. Nice as these features are they are not essential. Just because you find Magic Lntern essential doesn't mean that others cannot film without it. You just need some skill & practice.

Sam Kanter · August 13th, 2011, 11:01 AM

OK - at least you've tried it and know what we're talking about - and yes, the unified version (60D, T3i, T2i, etc.) seems very stable.

It depends on what your idea of "essential" is. Certainly, if you want to record sound directly into the camera instead of using a separate device, ML is essential. I do it both ways - in camera with stereo mic, and with H4N, depending on the situation.

The other features are such a great help that I could not go back to shooting without them. Yes, one could shoot video without ML, so perhaps the word "essential" is not entirely correct. But why would you?

Sam Kanter · August 13th, 2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Mendoza

I think Nigel's point is that there've been plenty of people who've managed without it, including 7D users. It sounds, though, like it would definitely be worth trying. I, personally, am a little fearful of an off-party firmware with my only DSLR. Can't afford to take any chances.

Edward, I was fearful as well - but now feel that risk is very minimal and am totally happy with having a 60D on steroids! :-)

Charles Newcomb · August 13th, 2011, 11:22 AM

I've been really tempted to try it. In fact, I donated to its development. But right at the top of the download page this appears:

* THIS IS DANGEROUS AND MIGHT DAMAGE YOUR CAMERA. *
* NO WARRANTIES. NO GUARANTEES. *
* *
* "IF IT BREAKS YOU GET TO KEEP BOTH PIECES" *

Ooooo. Pass. Thanks, anyway.

Sigh. Maybe in a later Canon firmware update.

August 10th, 2011, 05:18 PM	#32
John Wiley Trustee Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Byron Bay, Australia Posts: 1,155	Re: 60d 7D proof With the 3x crop mode you do lose a lot of width, but that is the whole point! If you want wide angle, you don't switch it on. You can turn your 200mm lens into a 600mm equivelant lens at the click of a few buttons. Alternatively, you can use your standard zoom lens as a telephoto lens to save some money. There is a catch, though: You need to have sharp lenses - really sharp lenses - in order to avoid softness. One crucial thing that has not been mentioned so far: The 60D has dual control wheels which give it a big advantage over the t2i & t3i. With my t2i, I have to look away from my LCD viewfinder in order to make sure I hit the right button to adjust aperture. With the 60D, both control wheels (one for aperture, one for shutterspeed) are positioned right where your forefinger and thumb rest, and cannot easily be mistaken for any other button. The 7D & 5Dmkii also have dual wheels, but the 60D is the cheapest model to offer this feature.

August 11th, 2011, 04:17 AM	#33
Nigel Barker Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Posts: 3,531	Re: 60d 7D proof It's important to realise the 3X HD crop mode uses the centre portion of the 18megapixel sensor so it is not like a regular digital zoom that just enlarges the pixels. There is no loss of resolution & because there is no line skipping when using this mode problems of moire & aliasing are avoided. It does mean that with a smaller effective sensor that the camera in this mode you cannot achieve the cool arty shallow depth of focus seen in normal mode.

August 11th, 2011, 06:03 AM	#34
John Wiley Trustee Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Byron Bay, Australia Posts: 1,155	Re: 60d 7D proof Nigel, I think it's worth mentioning that while the crop mode should not itself lead to softness, it does make any lens flaws more apparent - like when you see those 100% crops in a lens review. So, if you don't have sharp lenses then using the 3x crop mode can really highlight their problems.

August 11th, 2011, 11:28 AM	#35
Edward Mendoza Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 157	Re: 60d 7D proof I see, said the blind man. So it's not really a smaller sensor but rather a feature that crops a portion of the sensor, yes? __________________ Edward Mendoza, Videographer/Editor, TEXAS VIDEO PRODUCTION www.texasvideoproduction.us

August 11th, 2011, 09:38 PM	#36
John Wiley Trustee Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Byron Bay, Australia Posts: 1,155	Re: 60d 7D proof That's right Edward. It is a feature which can be switched off. The actual t3i sensor is (almost?) identical to that used in the t2i, it's just you have the added option of only using part of the sensor when you choose to.

August 12th, 2011, 07:11 AM	#38
Kin Lau Major Player Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 385	Re: 60d 7D proof I got my T3i mainly for the 3x tele-crop feature, since my main interest is wildlife/birds. I already have the 7D. The articulating LCD is _very_ useful, audio control is useful too. I don't find the loss of the rear control wheel to be such a big deal - I've had several in the Rebel series w/o the rear wheel, and it's just very easy to hit that AV button while turning the front wheel. When shooting stills, I do appreciate the rear wheel on my 1D, 1Ds & 7D.

August 12th, 2011, 09:33 PM	#40
Edward Mendoza Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 157	Re: 60d 7D proof I think Nigel's point is that there've been plenty of people who've managed without it, including 7D users. It sounds, though, like it would definitely be worth trying. I, personally, am a little fearful of an off-party firmware with my only DSLR. Can't afford to take any chances. __________________ Edward Mendoza, Videographer/Editor, TEXAS VIDEO PRODUCTION www.texasvideoproduction.us

August 13th, 2011, 11:01 AM	#43
Sam Kanter Major Player Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: New York Posts: 205	Re: 60d 7D proof OK - at least you've tried it and know what we're talking about - and yes, the unified version (60D, T3i, T2i, etc.) seems very stable. It depends on what your idea of "essential" is. Certainly, if you want to record sound directly into the camera instead of using a separate device, ML is essential. I do it both ways - in camera with stereo mic, and with H4N, depending on the situation. The other features are such a great help that I could not go back to shooting without them. Yes, one could shoot video without ML, so perhaps the word "essential" is not entirely correct. But why would you?

August 13th, 2011, 11:22 AM	#45
Charles Newcomb Major Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Salida, Colorado Posts: 561	Re: 60d 7D proof I've been really tempted to try it. In fact, I donated to its development. But right at the top of the download page this appears: * THIS IS DANGEROUS AND MIGHT DAMAGE YOUR CAMERA. * * NO WARRANTIES. NO GUARANTEES. * * * * "IF IT BREAKS YOU GET TO KEEP BOTH PIECES" * Ooooo. Pass. Thanks, anyway. Sigh. Maybe in a later Canon firmware update.