Full HD on Canon EOS 5D Mk. II -- officially announced

Joe Sonnenburg · October 14th, 2008, 07:03 PM

While I am probably not going to buy the 5D, I am interested to see how the innovation filters down into Canon's video line. It would be great to see them improve upon the chips, work on some of the issues such as rolling shutter, and put it in a video camera body. That is what really got me excited when I heard about the new 5D (and the D90). It will be exciting to see what happens the next year or so.

M. Paul El-Darwish · October 14th, 2008, 07:52 PM

Nicely put ;) Actually, the whole resolution is king argument is as old as Ansel Adams Vs The lyrical impressionist photogs of his time.
I've written about it ad naseum.

Based on some of the not so great art I've seen made with reeelly Hi Def Cams, I can beat many with my cellphone cam set on 'Video'.

The best gear just gives the best production an edge for the BIG screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

You do to impress other photographers David, but you most certainly don't to impress clients. For that you need skill, imagination, experience and the ability to get the job done, on time and within budget.

tom.

Evan Donn · October 14th, 2008, 09:27 PM

Don't forget you can rent these lenses too. My local shop runs from $15-$100 a day for L series glass, with the vast majority of lenses running about $30/day. Friday afternoon to monday morning is a 1 day charge, and a week is a 3 day charge, so you're not looking at a lot of money to pick up 2 or 3 good lenses for a shoot.

I ordered the kit lens as a general purpose walking around lens, and I'll probably pick up the 50mm 1.4, but beyond that I expect to just rent whatever I need for each specific shoot.

Pat Reddy · October 14th, 2008, 09:51 PM

You certainly won't have to use L lenses for good video on the 5D MKII, but they can help. L lenses typically have outstanding contrast, great color transmission, great bokeh, low distortion, and minimal CA...things that will show up in either HD or DSLR resolutions.

Pat

Andrew McMillan · October 15th, 2008, 07:30 AM

well i don't if they would show up I mean hd is only 2mp while those lenses are designed to do 20 something mp.

Does anybody know how the whole 24p thing is going with canon?

Jim Giberti · October 15th, 2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Reddy

You certainly won't have to use L lenses for good video on the 5D MKII, but they can help. L lenses typically have outstanding contrast, great color transmission, great bokeh, low distortion, and minimal CA...things that will show up in either HD or DSLR resolutions.

Pat

Definitely not. In fact we did early tests comparing Zeiss Primes vs Nikon primes using the P&S mini35 setup on the Canon XL and found no difference in image quality. In fact the 85mm 1.4 for about $900 is built about as well and feels as good manually as the Zeiss 85mm we tested with.

I'm sure the same will be true of Canon glass.

Jad Meouchy · October 15th, 2008, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

Definitely not. In fact we did early tests comparing Zeiss Primes vs Nikon primes using the P&S mini35 setup on the Canon XL and found no difference in image quality. In fact the 85mm 1.4 for about $900 is built about as well and feels as good manually as the Zeiss 85mm we tested with.

I'm sure the same will be true of Canon glass.

In all fairness to Zeiss glass, that test is a bit moot when stepping to HD resolutions, even with the increase in sensor size.

Jim Giberti · October 15th, 2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jad Meouchy

In all fairness to Zeiss glass, that test is a bit moot when stepping to HD resolutions, even with the increase in sensor size.

Why is it moot? I Don't get your point.

Nick Hiltgen · October 20th, 2008, 08:34 AM

GLASS
I believe that Jed was saying it was moot because if you were doing xl-1/s/2 then you were seeing the result in Standard Def so it was only 1/4 the resolution of HD resolution. If you look at it on an HD sensor the Nikon may not hold up as well as the zeiss lenses. The other thing to consider is that with the 5d2 you're not recording a piece of ground glass (that may hide the imperfections in a lens) you're recording straight to a sensor which may not be as forgiving.

Regardless though it seems silly to have a discussion over which lenses you "can" and "can't" use for a camera, most people I know who work will use whatever lenses they can get their hands on that will get the job done regardless of what anyone types (or hypes) on the internet. It's like the DP's who swear by Cooke lenses and won't use Zeiss master primes, they're all tools.

DOF
If it helps I could have sworn that I read that the sensor masks down to 16:9 resolution by greying out the area that won't be recorded to the card. I guess it serves as kind of a "safe zone" again, no one will know for sure until the camera come out. So it seems like you are using the full sensor from left to right but have some masking on the top and bottom, which I believe preserves the "35mm DOF"

ROLLING SHUTTER
Also I saw some of the rolling shutter "issues." Seriously? A guy shakes the camera like it's an earthquake and the image gets distorted? And 4000 people who will never shoot a movie in there life hop on the internet and complain about how that's unacceptable? What are you shooting where that kind of operating is expected? Earthquake 3? I mean come on, why would you even point out that if you're not very good at operating a camera that you shouldn't use this one? Seems like more of a "idiot resistant" feature then an issue. Show me the image getting screwed up during normal or even extreme (but not ridiculous) operation and I'll care a lot more. (or slow my pans and tilts down!)

F900/Varicam killer?
Seriously anyone that is proposing that this will Cannabalize the market of a varicam or f900 has not used one of these cameras, believe it or not when you buy a 100k camera you're getting more then a sensor, If they add multiple frame rates, an HD-SDI output, Y PR PB support, inter operability with a professional battery system, or a fiber optic system, then MAYBE MAYBE there's a small concern but come on, how many people do you know that bought an f900 to shoot something that needed 35mm DOF?

Don Miller · October 20th, 2008, 09:03 AM

Glass
An XL2 with its tiny sensors would only use the center of the image circle. It actually needs much higher res glass than the mkII. When you guys talk about Zeiss, you mean their dslr lenses, right? The zeiss 85 is certainly not provably superior to the Nikon or Canon 85s. It has a somewhat different look. If you talking about the very expensive Zeiss cine lenses, I expect these would be somewhat sharper at the corners.

30p
The way Canon works, the software and hardware in the 5DII is capable of doing different frame rates. But the 5DII only does 30p so that a higher end dslr can be differentiated with more frame rates. They are not likely to make a firmware change for 24/25p.

Rolling Shutter
Looks good to me. Canon's done some work here.

High end competition
It's not about the 5DII, its about this technology going into high-end products. It seems to me Canon will be a new player in this area. The 5DII sensor isn't even a video specific design. What will a video specific cmos design look like? That would make me nervous if I was a high-end video equipment producer.
Remember that the 5DII sensor is designed for bayer processing. Video CMOS pulls all three color off the sensor - no interpolation. (Red: 12M/3 colors = 4M)

Nick Hiltgen · October 20th, 2008, 09:10 AM

Don when they put the lens on a mini 35 adapter it's using the full lens (not just the center) when they just use like the ef adapter though you're absolutely right, but I don't think that's the test JIM and JED were talking about.

Alexandre Guinefort · October 22nd, 2008, 10:34 AM

Hi, i was wondering if nikon's primes would work well (as well as L series zoom..) using the 5d m2 video mode ? i already have a 5d with 24-105 L and 70-200 L series but before that, i was an addict of my old unbreakable Nikon Fm2 + a set of old nikon primes (no autofocus ones) - Still have them, sleeping, but ready to rebirth.

I've seen a few adaptators (nikon to canon ring) that seems to keep the usuals electronics fonctions (light meter, auto focusing ?). For my use, focus will be manual
with redrock follow focus so i don't mind autofocus but i mind a little light meter (could be usefull even if i use an independant light meter) last and most important : Price...and old nikon's primes are really great and quite cheap. Would it work in vidéo 1080 P with the 5d mark 2 ? i'm not talking about "style" here but more about final image result.
I know no one have been doing test yet about this, but is there a particular reason why the video mode would make impossible the use of nikon lens ?

THKS - AG

Peter Moretti · October 23rd, 2008, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Miller

...
Remember that the 5DII sensor is designed for bayer processing. Video CMOS pulls all three color off the sensor - no interpolation. (Red: 12M/3 colors = 4M)

Don, I don't follow you here. The Red sensor is indeed a Bayer sensor. So it uses a color mask. The demosaicing/debayering process used on Red footage has to interpolate color from adjacent pixels.

Don Miller · October 23rd, 2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Moretti

Don, I don't follow you here. The Red sensor is indeed a Bayer sensor. So it uses a color mask. The demosaicing/debayering process used on Red footage has to interpolate color from adjacent pixels.

It's a mysterium to me.

Dylan Couper · October 23rd, 2008, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Miller

It's a mysterium to me.

WINNER: DVinfo.net pun prize of the day!

October 14th, 2008, 09:27 PM	#318
Evan Donn Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 795	Don't forget you can rent these lenses too. My local shop runs from $15-$100 a day for L series glass, with the vast majority of lenses running about $30/day. Friday afternoon to monday morning is a 1 day charge, and a week is a 3 day charge, so you're not looking at a lot of money to pick up 2 or 3 good lenses for a shoot. I ordered the kit lens as a general purpose walking around lens, and I'll probably pick up the 50mm 1.4, but beyond that I expect to just rent whatever I need for each specific shoot. __________________ My latest short documentary: "Four Pauls: Bring the Hat Back!"

October 20th, 2008, 08:34 AM	#324
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	GLASS I believe that Jed was saying it was moot because if you were doing xl-1/s/2 then you were seeing the result in Standard Def so it was only 1/4 the resolution of HD resolution. If you look at it on an HD sensor the Nikon may not hold up as well as the zeiss lenses. The other thing to consider is that with the 5d2 you're not recording a piece of ground glass (that may hide the imperfections in a lens) you're recording straight to a sensor which may not be as forgiving. Regardless though it seems silly to have a discussion over which lenses you "can" and "can't" use for a camera, most people I know who work will use whatever lenses they can get their hands on that will get the job done regardless of what anyone types (or hypes) on the internet. It's like the DP's who swear by Cooke lenses and won't use Zeiss master primes, they're all tools. DOF If it helps I could have sworn that I read that the sensor masks down to 16:9 resolution by greying out the area that won't be recorded to the card. I guess it serves as kind of a "safe zone" again, no one will know for sure until the camera come out. So it seems like you are using the full sensor from left to right but have some masking on the top and bottom, which I believe preserves the "35mm DOF" ROLLING SHUTTER Also I saw some of the rolling shutter "issues." Seriously? A guy shakes the camera like it's an earthquake and the image gets distorted? And 4000 people who will never shoot a movie in there life hop on the internet and complain about how that's unacceptable? What are you shooting where that kind of operating is expected? Earthquake 3? I mean come on, why would you even point out that if you're not very good at operating a camera that you shouldn't use this one? Seems like more of a "idiot resistant" feature then an issue. Show me the image getting screwed up during normal or even extreme (but not ridiculous) operation and I'll care a lot more. (or slow my pans and tilts down!) F900/Varicam killer? Seriously anyone that is proposing that this will Cannabalize the market of a varicam or f900 has not used one of these cameras, believe it or not when you buy a 100k camera you're getting more then a sensor, If they add multiple frame rates, an HD-SDI output, Y PR PB support, inter operability with a professional battery system, or a fiber optic system, then MAYBE MAYBE there's a small concern but come on, how many people do you know that bought an f900 to shoot something that needed 35mm DOF? __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

October 20th, 2008, 09:10 AM	#326
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	Don when they put the lens on a mini 35 adapter it's using the full lens (not just the center) when they just use like the ef adapter though you're absolutely right, but I don't think that's the test JIM and JED were talking about. __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

October 22nd, 2008, 10:34 AM	#327
Alexandre Guinefort New Boot Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris France Posts: 6	Nikon primes on Canon 5d Mark 2 / hd video mode Hi, i was wondering if nikon's primes would work well (as well as L series zoom..) using the 5d m2 video mode ? i already have a 5d with 24-105 L and 70-200 L series but before that, i was an addict of my old unbreakable Nikon Fm2 + a set of old nikon primes (no autofocus ones) - Still have them, sleeping, but ready to rebirth. I've seen a few adaptators (nikon to canon ring) that seems to keep the usuals electronics fonctions (light meter, auto focusing ?). For my use, focus will be manual with redrock follow focus so i don't mind autofocus but i mind a little light meter (could be usefull even if i use an independant light meter) last and most important : Price...and old nikon's primes are really great and quite cheap. Would it work in vidéo 1080 P with the 5d mark 2 ? i'm not talking about "style" here but more about final image result. I know no one have been doing test yet about this, but is there a particular reason why the video mode would make impossible the use of nikon lens ? THKS - AG

October 14th, 2008, 07:03 PM	#316
Joe Sonnenburg Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 26	While I am probably not going to buy the 5D, I am interested to see how the innovation filters down into Canon's video line. It would be great to see them improve upon the chips, work on some of the issues such as rolling shutter, and put it in a video camera body. That is what really got me excited when I heard about the new 5D (and the D90). It will be exciting to see what happens the next year or so.

October 14th, 2008, 09:51 PM	#319
Pat Reddy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 288	You certainly won't have to use L lenses for good video on the 5D MKII, but they can help. L lenses typically have outstanding contrast, great color transmission, great bokeh, low distortion, and minimal CA...things that will show up in either HD or DSLR resolutions. Pat

October 15th, 2008, 07:30 AM	#320
Andrew McMillan Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Colombia Posts: 153	well i don't if they would show up I mean hd is only 2mp while those lenses are designed to do 20 something mp. Does anybody know how the whole 24p thing is going with canon?

October 20th, 2008, 09:03 AM	#325
Don Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 706	Glass An XL2 with its tiny sensors would only use the center of the image circle. It actually needs much higher res glass than the mkII. When you guys talk about Zeiss, you mean their dslr lenses, right? The zeiss 85 is certainly not provably superior to the Nikon or Canon 85s. It has a somewhat different look. If you talking about the very expensive Zeiss cine lenses, I expect these would be somewhat sharper at the corners. 30p The way Canon works, the software and hardware in the 5DII is capable of doing different frame rates. But the 5DII only does 30p so that a higher end dslr can be differentiated with more frame rates. They are not likely to make a firmware change for 24/25p. Rolling Shutter Looks good to me. Canon's done some work here. High end competition It's not about the 5DII, its about this technology going into high-end products. It seems to me Canon will be a new player in this area. The 5DII sensor isn't even a video specific design. What will a video specific cmos design look like? That would make me nervous if I was a high-end video equipment producer. Remember that the 5DII sensor is designed for bayer processing. Video CMOS pulls all three color off the sensor - no interpolation. (Red: 12M/3 colors = 4M)