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Canon EOS Full Frame for HD
All about using the Canon 1D X, 6D, 5D Mk. IV / Mk. III / Mk. II D-SLR for 4K and HD video recording.


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Old November 17th, 2008, 02:46 PM   #31
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Daniel there two examples that have brought me to this conclusion.

One is on this forum under "My D90/5DMII Rig is Ready to Roll" where Dan offers this video link of what he shot saying the Skew is bad with the camera.
Tibet, six months on: 'There is no freedom here' | World news | guardian.co.uk

The other I can not post from a friend and we have been very impressed with the 5DMII camera while on a tripod but hand held next to my EX1 the EX1 wins. Also the heat issue could be a big problem running the camera for 4-6 hr shoot.

I would love to see Canon solve this and I know they will but for now the camera will not work for me where I shoot fast action most of the time.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 02:53 PM   #32
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Yes but that was shot on the D90, not the 5D2 :)

Very different cameras.

The skew on the D90 is indeed pretty bad.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 03:19 PM   #33
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Correct it was shot on the D90 and from our test I have seen the same problem on the 5D2. Sorry I can not post the results but as I said if anyone can solve it Canon can and i look forward to the next round.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 03:21 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Daniel Lipats View Post
What exactly are you using to measure the 5D2 rolling shutter?

Based on the videos we have seen so far, including the camera mounted on the bike, the rolling shutter on the 5D2 is not prominent. It does not look much worse than the EX1. Its there to some extent but seems very manageable.
I agree, we've seen the video mounted on bicycles doing flips, on cars driving around town, and cars driving by... I've yet to see anything too awful.

After seeing people shake the camera around like a crazy person, I got to thinking about it. I took my EX1 and started shaking it around (making sure nobody was around to see me looking like a fool) and it did the same thing! Goes to show you how vital it is, since I've had the EX1 for 8 months and never knew it did it at all!
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Old November 17th, 2008, 04:21 PM   #35
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I have a long response here, so let me start with a brief summary: I agree that the quality *could* be excellent, but to my eye, it is not. Below I'll describe the worst problems and what the causes for it are. I think many people will overlook the problems because of the positive aspects of a large sensor.

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This down sampling from almost 18mp to about 2mp can make a very high quality video.
Yes, downsampling 18 MP to 2 MP can make very high quality video. Using the most advanced demosiac algorithms and post-processing techniques, the quality can be astounding. The reason for this is that noise adds in quadrature. In other words: for every four-fold decrease in resolution, noise decreases by half. Resampling an 18 MP still down to 2 MP reduces noise by a factor of almost 1.7X (sqrt(5616/1920)). With perfect processing, video from the 5D Mark II would have one and two third stops more dynamic range because of the reduction in noise compared to a 100% crop a still.

The catch is that the noise must be random and uncorrelated to get the full benefit. Furthermore, the correct demosiac algorithms must be used in order to result in images that have noise power that is random and uncorrelated at all frequencies. The best algorithms take about 15 seconds per 18 MP frame on a powerful computer, but you can use faster algorithms to get about 2-3 FPS on a quad-core computer without sacrificing quality.

The problem is that the 5D Mark II does not have a quad-core computer built in, and it has to be 10 times faster than a quad-core computer. Therefore it is necessary for Canon to take drastic measures for things to work, which include a very poor quality in-camera processing. No one knows for sure what they are doing, but the results are much worse than resampled stills.

To my eye, the worst offenders are the over-sharpening, poor resolution, moire, clipped highlights, crushed blacks, over-saturation, blocky compression, mosquito noise, and slow read-reset. I'm buying the camera anyway for stills, but I will also do some tests to see if most of these issues can be addressed with careful post-processing and resampling to 720p (the same way I address many of these issues with my XH-A1).

I think another contributor to the poor quality is that Canon did not apply the right solution to the problem. They made the same mistake when they developed their sRAW "feature". The purpose was to reduce the amount of disk space taken by a raw image without losing the "raw" feature. The correct solution would have been to remove the 4 MB of JPEG previews, use nonlinear compression (visually lossless), and truncate bit depths for each step in ISO. The combination of these result in file sizes that are 1/8th the size of the full RAW file with no decrease in quality and very little increase in in-camera software complexity. Nikon uses one of these techinques in their NEF compression.

Instead, Canon built the sRAW system which throws away over half the resolution and wastes half of the disk space on embedded JPEG previews, and doesn't even result in a significant decrease in file size. It's possible that they are using this same solution to get the RAW data down to a managable size before using a very low quality demosiac, or something else altogether.

Another exmaple is how Canon clips highlights for all ISO over 1600. In the 10D, they correctly used metadata, but in all subsequent cameras, the highlights are literally discarded. In the 50D, up to four stops of dynamic range are thrown away with no benefit in noise reduction.

Again, I think many people will overlook the image quality, control, and other issues just to get any kind of video from a VistaVision size sensor for $2700. As a video camera only, Canon got almost everything wrong except one thing: a very large sensor. Scarlet, on the other hand, gets everything right, but has a smaller sensor.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 06:30 PM   #36
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I have to admit that if not for the large sensor I would not care about the 5D2. But I think Canon got a lot of things right. Outstanding low light performance, relatively clean picture, saturated colors (this can always be adjusted in post), interchangeable lens mount, a good codec and if I'm not mistaking it's got a higher data rate than HDV at 38.6 mbit.

I do realize the importance of RAW video, would be great but I'm not sure if its practical. Support for a RAW format would require a strong post tools & workflow. It would make the camera more complex and more expensive. I would understand this as a more attractive option once Adobe's open CinemaDNG standard matures but its not even available yet.

This is a $2,600 camera, there are limitations to the hardware. I think we are getting a lot of bang for the buck, almost too good to be true. I just hope we wont be disappointed in the end.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 07:20 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Lipats View Post
I have to admit that if not for the large sensor I would not care about the 5D2. But I think Canon got a lot of things right. Outstanding low light performance, relatively clean picture, saturated colors (this can always be adjusted in post), interchangeable lens mount, a good codec and if I'm not mistaking it's got a higher data rate than HDV at 38.6 mbit.
.............................
I believe the "picture style" setting apply to video also. So it should be possible to back off on saturation, contrast and sharpening. I doubt most people would shoot as hot as the Reverie demo if the were planning on working on the capture in post.

Also SDI or wavelet compression is a heck of a lot easier to output than to do all the processing that is done to finish the video from the 5DII. I would be happy with outputting something pro-res 4-2-2 like. Not that this will happen with the 5D, but it's likely we will get a higher data rate and more control with whatever Canon has coming next. We will see an appearance by Sony at some point too.

I see flaws in all video. When I take my girls to some awful movie it's interesting to look at all the problems in many scenes. Even in high budget movies. So I guess some our opinion about the pre-production 5dII images is based on what bothers each of us. I'm much more interested in the high ISO performance of the 5D than a studio centric camera like Red.
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Old November 18th, 2008, 10:29 PM   #38
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My question: In considering the Red 5K Scarlet (30mm sensor) for $7000, do you think the max fps is locked at 30p for 5k, 4k, 3k, 1080P 720P?

I have a suspicion that this camera will be similar to the red ONE, in that, at lower resolutions it may offer higher framerates. Somebody can debunk this myth if they know the answer, but what I'm trying to point out is, don't jump to conclusions JUST yet.

Anyway, re. 2/3 sensor, probably with an adaptor to run Canon EOS mount lenses and 120fps @3k, and you still want a 5D MkII? Something is wrong with you!

Firstly, the 5d2 is a bit more pricey (body only too remember!)
Has no proper exposure control or viewfinder
Shoots 30p ONLY

BUT, has a bigger sensor. Doesn't mean it has better Lattitude, and 2/3 DOF when used creatively is just fine, especially if you whack on some nice 85 1.2L lenses.

(Oh and for the record, I already have a 5D2 on order, so I'm not exactly biased;) )
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Old November 18th, 2008, 10:42 PM   #39
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Jannard posted additional specs that confirm you can get 60 FPS in 2k mode on the 5k Scarlet:

Scarlet, RED ONE and EPIC specs... - Reduser.net
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Old November 18th, 2008, 10:55 PM   #40
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Your right, the body may be a bit more expensive. But the only other thing you would need is a lens & a memory card. Thats only about ~$450 more.

Scarlet on the other hand:

2/3" Brain - $2,500
2x fast 16gb Flash modules $550 ea. via RED store - $1,100
A nice zoom or a set of 2/3" primes - ~1,000
Viewfinder or lcd - $? (RED EVF is $3,000)
Recording module (unless the brain has one) - $?
REDhandle or REDmote to control camera functions - $?

Would it be safe to assume around $6,000 - $10,000 for a functional 2/3" Scarlet camera?

It's still a great camera at that price, no doubt about it. Besides, everything is subject to change and I'm sure it will. The only trouble is that you can't buy one yet, and the 5D2 is only a few weeks or so away.

The disadvantage of a 35mm adapter is the weight added to the camera, the size of the camera, loss of sharpness, the hot spot, and the light loss. Instead of just a f/1.2 lens, you lose 1-2 stops more with the ground glass, 1 stop more with the flip module, and finally you lose even more light with the lens mounted onto the adapter. Thats a lot of glass.

Not to mention having to buy the 35mm lens & 35mm adapter too!

For me the 5D2 is a compromise until the S35 Scarlet is available.
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Old November 18th, 2008, 11:20 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Daniel Lipats View Post
... a lens & a memory card. Thats only about ~$450 more.
In my opinion it would be criminal to put anything less than L-series glass on
a 5D Mk. II, which pushes that figure into the $800 to $1000 range for starters.

EF 70-200mm f/2.8L -- $700

EF 70-200mm f/4.0L -- $1400

EF 28-70mm f/2.8L -- $1400

Just say no to cheap glass on a full-frame D-SLR.
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Old November 18th, 2008, 11:41 PM   #42
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In my opinion it would be criminal to put anything less than L-series glass on
a 5D Mk. II, which pushes that figure into the $800 to $1000 range for starters.

EF 70-200mm f/2.8L -- $700

EF 70-200mm f/4.0L -- $1400

EF 28-70mm f/2.8L -- $1400

Just say no to cheap glass on a full-frame D-SLR.
I agree that you gotta have L glass with zooms. From what I've seen there is a pretty big quality difference. Plus non L zooms are typically pretty slow. However, I don't think you need L glass for an amazing picture when it comes to prime lenses. The 50mm f/1.4 has been tested to be sharper than the 50mm f/1.2L at apertures above f/2.8.
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Old November 18th, 2008, 11:56 PM   #43
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In my opinion it would be criminal to put anything less than L-series glass on
a 5D Mk. II
That might be good enough for you, but I insist on *real* glass:

Carl Zeiss 150mm f/1.2, $25,000
Swayze 3000 mm f/4 Newt, $30,000
Fisher Price 60mm f/11, $1.99

On a more serious note, my favorite lens ever is the EF 24mm f/1.4 L; no other AF lens is wider at f/1.4, and the perspective and DOF control makes very interesting images, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Franco View Post
However, I don't think you need L glass for an amazing picture when it comes to prime lenses. The 50mm f/1.4 has been tested to be sharper than the 50mm f/1.2L at apertures above f/2.8.
If you think that's something, then get a load of this: the lowly 50mm f/1.8, at $80, is sharper than the f/1.2 in the corners at *all* apertures from f/1.8. And it's sharper 1/3rd from the center at f/2.8 and narrower. It's equally sharp in the center at f/2.8 and narrower. (I can link images if anyone would like them.)

But there's much more to "an amazing picture" than just resolution. Light gathering ability, DOF control, focus mechanics, bokeh, flare, and other considerations must be weighed. I compromised on the f/1.4 because of the price, but I would have preferred the f/1.2 for the other reasons, despite its lower resolution and abberations.
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Old November 18th, 2008, 11:56 PM   #44
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In considering the Red 5K Scarlet you still want a 5D MkII? Something is wrong with you!
You could add "actually exists" to the 5D2 column. For me, that's a major feature on a camera.
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Old November 19th, 2008, 08:33 AM   #45
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I wouldn't think that 35mm still camera lenses would be good enough for 5K on a 2/3 sensor. Especially 35mm zoom.
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