Can 5D2 30p turn into decent 24p? You be the judge... at DVinfo.net

Barlow Elton · December 24th, 2008, 02:32 PM

I re-timed a few 5D Mk II clips I shot at an outdoor mall at night from 30fps to 24fps through Compressor with its Optical Flow goodness.

I'm shocked by the results. It's far from a perfect solution, but I think one can certainly 'get away with it', as it were, by shooting with this camera and getting a relatively smooth 24p conversion in post that wouldn't draw attention to itself. Yeah, Compressor does render synthetic 'in-between' frames where it needs them, but in motion, (IMO) it basically looks the part.

I shot this with a friend of mine (Natalie) who volunteered to be my guinea pig for the test.

Details:

--5D2
--Nikon 17-35mm, F 2.8
--First shot is 35mm, F 2.8, Second shot is 17mm F2.8 (very nicely wide)
--Basic, not very well adjusted Glidecam stabilizer (need to add weight)
--ISO 1000 locked
--Shutter drifted I think. Mostly is either 1/40 or 1/60 (need to learn the new tricks)
--Converted to ProRes and re-timed in Compressor
--30p original clip provided for reference

Let me know what you guys think: http://homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton

Jeremy Nicholl · December 25th, 2008, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

--Basic, not very well adjusted Glidecam stabilizer (need to add weight)
http://homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton

Which Glidecam model did you use, and have you since managed to improve the stabilisation?

A couple of weeks ago I took a 5d2 to a Steadicam dealer, but we just couldn't get it balanced. I'm going to look at Glidecam 2000 & 4000 tomorrow, so I'm interested to hear from anyone who's succeeded with a 5d2 on either of these, or indeed any other stabiliser.

Thanks in advance,

Jeremy Nicholl

Toenis Liivamaegi · December 25th, 2008, 09:14 AM

Please make a sticky about the 24/25 conversion.
My whole documentary project depends on the ability to convert it for European broadcast, 25fps that is. I am located in EU.

Thanks ,
T

Oleg Kalyan · December 25th, 2008, 09:50 AM

Barlow,

how do you set your Nikon 17-35 f2.8 open?
mine 70 200 is closed down to highest F stop, do you put something inside to keep it open at 2.8??

sorry about off topic..

Stephen van Vuuren · December 25th, 2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

I re-timed a few 5D Mk II clips I shot at an outdoor mall at night from 30fps to 24fps through Compressor with its Optical Flow goodness.

I think it did a pretty good job. I took your original file and ran it through Twixtor 4.5 with fairly default settings - just changed mode from blend to nearest. I like Twixtor a bit better - especially if I wanted to tweak motion blur etc. but the Compressor results are still very good.

direct link
http://www.outsideinthemovie.com/col...fpsTwixtor.mov

folder link
Index of /collab

Barlow Elton · December 25th, 2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Nicholl

Which Glidecam model did you use, and have you since managed to improve the stabilisation?

A couple of weeks ago I took a 5d2 to a Steadicam dealer, but we just couldn't get it balanced. I'm going to look at Glidecam 2000 & 4000 tomorrow, so I'm interested to hear from anyone who's succeeded with a 5d2 on either of these, or indeed any other stabiliser.

Thanks in advance,

Jeremy Nicholl

It was a 4000 with no steady shooter arm and vest. I think you could easily get a 2000 or Steadicam Merlin to balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toenis Liivamaegi

Please make a sticky about the 24/25 conversion.
My whole documentary project depends on the ability to convert it for European broadcast, 25fps that is. I am located in EU.

It's really only a matter of turning the frame controls on in the inspector window and in the QT codec window setting a custom 24 frame rate with high quality motion compensation turned on, and everything else set to basic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen van Vuuren

I think it did a pretty good job. I took your original file and ran it through Twixtor 4.5 with fairly default settings - just changed mode from blend to nearest. I like Twixtor a bit better - especially if I wanted to tweak motion blur etc. but the Compressor results are still very good.

Looks like Twixtor did the same thing. Did you have it reduce motion blur? Either way, works for me. Thanks for the sample. :)

Chris Barcellos · December 25th, 2008, 03:30 PM

Barlow:

Curious about the Christmas tree in background, going purple light to white light. Was the tree actually changing colors in sections, seems to slow to be a rolling shutter issue.

Barlow Elton · December 25th, 2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Barlow:

Curious about the Christmas tree in background, going purple light to white light. Was the tree actually changing colors in sections, seems to slow to be a rolling shutter issue.

No, not a rolling shutter issue--it was really changing colors in sections at that speed.

Barlow Elton · December 25th, 2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Kalyan

Barlow,

how do you set your Nikon 17-35 f2.8 open?
mine 70 200 is closed down to highest F stop, do you put something inside to keep it open at 2.8??

sorry about off topic..

It was a manual aperture ring lens. The ONLY way to fly. ;)

Stephen van Vuuren · December 25th, 2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

Looks like Twixtor did the same thing. Did you have it reduce motion blur? Either way, works for me. Thanks for the sample. :)

No, I just ran with defaults, but Twixtor has motion blur compensation for footage with more or less blur as well as a number of other settings. But from what you posted, Compressor seems to work fine.

Oleg Kalyan · December 25th, 2008, 06:29 PM

Barlow, thank you!

Don Miller · December 26th, 2008, 05:43 PM

Anyone with a critical view of this video? It would be nice if someone like Graeme Nattress would pop back in and take a look.

Christopher Drews · December 27th, 2008, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

No, not a rolling shutter issue--it was really changing colors in sections at that speed.

I agree with Chris. This looks entirely like Rolling Shutter but slow. See how the color changes before the image updates - unless this was created from the frame convert to 24p. Either way, it caught my attention as distortion.

Also, I noticed the codec said 24p not 23.976 - The VideoCopilot tutorial recommends the NTSC version of 24p @ 23.976 - I wonder if differences will be perceived.

Otherwise, holy cow - the footage is great. I also own the 4000 except I bought the vest and arm for the sled. Any tips on balancing on the 4000?

-C

Michael Stern · December 27th, 2008, 01:31 PM

How exactly did you re-time in compressor? Would love some step by step. thanks!

Michael Schoenfeld · December 28th, 2008, 01:35 AM

Michael Schoenfeld here,

Barlow is a close friend of mine - Natalie works for me - and......

The Christmas tree with the blue and white lights, which "cascade down from top to bottom in a segmented fashion" is REAL - NOT, repeat NOT, a post production or shooting problem - that is EXACTLY what that tree's lights do in reality. That yule tree is 500 feet away from where I am typing this right now - trust me.

Barlow edits and shoots projects with me - if he says he converted 30p to 24p with very few, if any artifacts, you can believe him - he knows his stuff.

The "tree" is the "tree" - no "rolling shutter" there - (I'm not saying this camera has no "rolling shutter concerns", but it's not manifesting itself in this "tree" thing.

BTW, Barlow and I both own 5D MKII's now, and the Nikon lenses are really the "only way to fly" - say "APERTURE CONTROL" - really silly move on Canon's part if you ask me; I own about 25 Canon lenses, including almost all the "L glass" primes and zooms up to 200mm, 300 F4, 100-400 F4/5.6. I also still own a 50mm Zeiss ZF, a Nikon 85 F1.4, and a Nikon 200mm F2, all superb on the 5D. Come on Canon, was "manual control" really too much to ask for US$2699.00? I'd have given you $3k for total manual control. Just sick.

The Nikon 17-35 belongs to a friend of ours - stupid me, I sold that lens to him about a year ago! Ah well, I have the 16-35 Canon L and it does do a nice job, IF you can get past the aperture crap.

This camera's video funtionality is really amazing, but very eccentric, much akin to a crazy relative you still invite to your family functions, hoping the intellectual, witty, deeply emotionally satisfying version shows up, not the vulgar, obscene, crass version of the relative.

Someday (soon I hope) Canon will really hit the ball out of the park; 1DsMKIV?

These kludges are interesting and valuable, if not maddening.

All the best,

Michael Schoenfeld

December 24th, 2008, 02:32 PM	#1
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Can 5D2 30p turn into decent 24p? You be the judge... I re-timed a few 5D Mk II clips I shot at an outdoor mall at night from 30fps to 24fps through Compressor with its Optical Flow goodness. I'm shocked by the results. It's far from a perfect solution, but I think one can certainly 'get away with it', as it were, by shooting with this camera and getting a relatively smooth 24p conversion in post that wouldn't draw attention to itself. Yeah, Compressor does render synthetic 'in-between' frames where it needs them, but in motion, (IMO) it basically looks the part. I shot this with a friend of mine (Natalie) who volunteered to be my guinea pig for the test. Details: --5D2 --Nikon 17-35mm, F 2.8 --First shot is 35mm, F 2.8, Second shot is 17mm F2.8 (very nicely wide) --Basic, not very well adjusted Glidecam stabilizer (need to add weight) --ISO 1000 locked --Shutter drifted I think. Mostly is either 1/40 or 1/60 (need to learn the new tricks) --Converted to ProRes and re-timed in Compressor --30p original clip provided for reference Let me know what you guys think: http://homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton

December 25th, 2008, 09:14 AM	#3
Toenis Liivamaegi Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tartu, Estonia Posts: 579	How to smoothly edit and convert to 24/25fps Please make a sticky about the 24/25 conversion. My whole documentary project depends on the ability to convert it for European broadcast, 25fps that is. I am located in EU. Thanks , T

December 25th, 2008, 09:50 AM	#4
Oleg Kalyan Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MOSCOW Posts: 860	Barlow, how do you set your Nikon 17-35 f2.8 open? mine 70 200 is closed down to highest F stop, do you put something inside to keep it open at 2.8?? sorry about off topic.. Last edited by Oleg Kalyan; December 25th, 2008 at 10:59 AM.

December 25th, 2008, 03:30 PM	#7
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Barlow: Curious about the Christmas tree in background, going purple light to white light. Was the tree actually changing colors in sections, seems to slow to be a rolling shutter issue. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

December 28th, 2008, 01:35 AM	#15
Michael Schoenfeld New Boot Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Utah USA Posts: 9	24p, that "tree" and what you might believe... Michael Schoenfeld here, Barlow is a close friend of mine - Natalie works for me - and...... The Christmas tree with the blue and white lights, which "cascade down from top to bottom in a segmented fashion" is REAL - NOT, repeat NOT, a post production or shooting problem - that is EXACTLY what that tree's lights do in reality. That yule tree is 500 feet away from where I am typing this right now - trust me. Barlow edits and shoots projects with me - if he says he converted 30p to 24p with very few, if any artifacts, you can believe him - he knows his stuff. The "tree" is the "tree" - no "rolling shutter" there - (I'm not saying this camera has no "rolling shutter concerns", but it's not manifesting itself in this "tree" thing. BTW, Barlow and I both own 5D MKII's now, and the Nikon lenses are really the "only way to fly" - say "APERTURE CONTROL" - really silly move on Canon's part if you ask me; I own about 25 Canon lenses, including almost all the "L glass" primes and zooms up to 200mm, 300 F4, 100-400 F4/5.6. I also still own a 50mm Zeiss ZF, a Nikon 85 F1.4, and a Nikon 200mm F2, all superb on the 5D. Come on Canon, was "manual control" really too much to ask for US$2699.00? I'd have given you $3k for total manual control. Just sick. The Nikon 17-35 belongs to a friend of ours - stupid me, I sold that lens to him about a year ago! Ah well, I have the 16-35 Canon L and it does do a nice job, IF you can get past the aperture crap. This camera's video funtionality is really amazing, but very eccentric, much akin to a crazy relative you still invite to your family functions, hoping the intellectual, witty, deeply emotionally satisfying version shows up, not the vulgar, obscene, crass version of the relative. Someday (soon I hope) Canon will really hit the ball out of the park; 1DsMKIV? These kludges are interesting and valuable, if not maddening. All the best, Michael Schoenfeld

December 25th, 2008, 06:29 PM	#11
Oleg Kalyan Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MOSCOW Posts: 860	Barlow, thank you!

December 26th, 2008, 05:43 PM	#12
Don Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 706	Anyone with a critical view of this video? It would be nice if someone like Graeme Nattress would pop back in and take a look.

December 27th, 2008, 01:31 PM	#14
Michael Stern New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: port jefferson station NY Posts: 11	How exactly did you re-time in compressor? Would love some step by step. thanks!