Canon's 5D Mark II White Paper Revised at DVinfo.net

Julian Frost · February 26th, 2009, 09:55 PM

"Perhaps more importantly, with the EOS 5D Mark II’s large image sensor and its ability to use very fast lenses, users can obtain shallow, selective depth of field that is difficult or impossible to achieve with regular camcorders with smaller image sensors. This sensor size difference means that, for any given combination of aperture value, subject distance and angle of view, images from the EOS 5D Mark II will have shallower depth of field than images from a conventional HD device. EOS 5D Mark II users can take advantage of this feature to produce high quality HD movies. Canon is gratified at the overwhelmingly positive market response to the EOS 5D Mark II camera. Based on this success, it’s only natural that advanced users are looking for manual aperture control in movie mode, and Canon is listening to constructive comments and feature suggestions. In the meantime, we hope that our comments here will help to clarify the White Paper’s statements on depth of field control in movie mode."

http://www.usa.canon.com/uploadedima...20II%20WP1.pdf

Let me quote that again...

"Based on this success, it’s only natural that advanced users are looking for manual aperture control in movie mode, and Canon is listening to constructive comments and feature suggestions."

One can only hope this means manual control is coming.

Julian

Chris Barcellos · February 27th, 2009, 12:37 AM

Very interesting...indeed !!

Julius Tan · February 27th, 2009, 01:23 AM

Exciting indeed.

Jon Fairhurst · February 27th, 2009, 01:44 AM

Note that they didn't mention full manual control. They only mention full manual aperture control. That speaks to the concern about competitive lenses having an advantage over EF glass.

Here's my constructive recommendation:
* The minimum change required would be to not reset the locked exposure settings when the user stops recording video. Only revert to auto mode when the locked exposure is manually disabled, or when the camera exits Live View. This would allow anybody who locks the exposure to get a series of shots that can be edited together cleanly.

However, it does not fix the competitive lens problem.

* The minimal change to fix the lens problem would be to allow the top wheel to control aperture when in aperture priority mode. Everything else could remain automatic, but please don't reset the exposure lock each time video recording is stopped.

* However, the best solution for all is to record video with the same settings (or as close as is practical) as in exposure simulation mode. This is the behavior that users intuitively expect. New users are generally surprised when the exposure simulation settings are lost immediately upon starting a movie mode recording. This solution gives users control without shining lights into the camera, and it would make Canon EF lenses the top choice for photo and video users alike.

Note that none of these suggestions require any modification of the camera user interface, or the instruction manual.

Dylan Couper · February 27th, 2009, 09:26 AM

I don't see why the can't implement a menu button that switches from the current full auto mode to a full manual mode where the camera works with the same video controls as in still mode.

Like Push Live View TWICE for manual mode.

Daniel Lipats · February 27th, 2009, 09:32 AM

I really doubt this means anything more than that Canon may take our requests under considerations on future products. I have no doubt that this has all taken them by surprise and would not be surprised to see larger sensors on future camcorders.

Dylan Couper · February 27th, 2009, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Lipats

I really doubt this means anything more than that Canon may take our requests under considerations on future products.

I agree with that. It's probably something for the 5D mkIII or 1D mkIV a year or more down the road.

Daniel Jackson · February 27th, 2009, 09:56 AM

I am still holding out hope that they will fix it soon. Nikon has to be licking it's chops at the hype over the 5dmk2, they can release a full chip dslr that works well without any concern for their camcorder line. If Nikon gets to market 6 months or a year ahead of Canon, think of how many people will jump over, and the problem of a strong competitor to their camcorder line still exists, they just don't reap any of the profits. If Canon fixes the firmware they can potentially dominate the market and steal a few loyal Nikon users.

Fix it Canon, for your own good, really, I am just looking out for you.

Julian Frost · February 27th, 2009, 01:55 PM

I don't understand why Canon doesn't use what it already has in the 5D mk II. There's a BIG dial on the top left of the camera body, with several positions on it. One is marked with a green box, another Av, another Tv, and a third, M. Surely, if we were to put the camera in the green box mode, the camera would do everything automatically. If we put the dial in Av mode and set the aperture, the camera could simply lock the aperture there and do everything else automatically. Similarly, if we were to put the dial on Tv, we could set the frame rate (within the limits set by Canon), the camera would lock the frame rate and everything else would be set automatically. And finally, for those of us who want it, we could turn the dial to M and do everything ourselves, just as we do now, and let the camera's brain take a rest!

Why would we need extra menus and other extraneous stuff? The camera already does all of this in stills mode! No need to make it more difficult!

Julian

Jim Giberti · February 27th, 2009, 02:33 PM

I wrote elsewhere about this yesterday but wasn't comfortable posting it here because I wasn't positive that the quote was from Canon.

I think that the last line is saying two things:
They're listening and understand our concerns.
Please keep it civil and positive.

I also think it's very different from what customer and tech support have previously felt they could say in answer to the torrent of complaints from HD users.

IMHO it certainly sounds like Canon is looking at a solution.

Michael Murie · February 27th, 2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

IMHO it certainly sounds like Canon is looking at a solution.

I have to think so too....I can't believe the corporate lawyers would have allowed such a statement out on an official document otherwise.

...unless they never saw it.

Joe Wentrup · February 27th, 2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

* The minimum change required would be to not reset the locked exposure settings when the user stops recording video. Only revert to auto mode when the locked exposure is manually disabled, or when the camera exits Live View. This would allow anybody who locks the exposure to get a series of shots that can be edited together cleanly.

Nothing to add to this post :)

Or, yes: With such a feature one doesn't look like an idiot anymore. (Ever seen a PROFESSIONAL video filmer setting up the camera again after every single shot? Puts off a lot of clients...)

Jon Fairhurst · February 27th, 2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Wentrup

Or, yes: With such a feature one doesn't look like an idiot anymore. (Ever seen a PROFESSIONAL video filmer setting up the camera again after every single shot? Puts off a lot of clients...)

So true! Just because the camera isn't designed for professional video use doesn't mean that 5D MkII owners want to look like pikers!

February 26th, 2009, 09:55 PM	#1
Julian Frost Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California USA Posts: 576	Canon's 5D Mark II White Paper Revised "Perhaps more importantly, with the EOS 5D Mark II’s large image sensor and its ability to use very fast lenses, users can obtain shallow, selective depth of field that is difficult or impossible to achieve with regular camcorders with smaller image sensors. This sensor size difference means that, for any given combination of aperture value, subject distance and angle of view, images from the EOS 5D Mark II will have shallower depth of field than images from a conventional HD device. EOS 5D Mark II users can take advantage of this feature to produce high quality HD movies. Canon is gratified at the overwhelmingly positive market response to the EOS 5D Mark II camera. Based on this success, it’s only natural that advanced users are looking for manual aperture control in movie mode, and Canon is listening to constructive comments and feature suggestions. In the meantime, we hope that our comments here will help to clarify the White Paper’s statements on depth of field control in movie mode." http://www.usa.canon.com/uploadedima...20II%20WP1.pdf Let me quote that again... "Based on this success, it’s only natural that advanced users are looking for manual aperture control in movie mode, and Canon is listening to constructive comments and feature suggestions." One can only hope this means manual control is coming. Julian

February 27th, 2009, 12:37 AM	#2
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Very interesting...indeed !! __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

February 27th, 2009, 01:44 AM	#4
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Note that they didn't mention full manual control. They only mention full manual aperture control. That speaks to the concern about competitive lenses having an advantage over EF glass. Here's my constructive recommendation: * The minimum change required would be to not reset the locked exposure settings when the user stops recording video. Only revert to auto mode when the locked exposure is manually disabled, or when the camera exits Live View. This would allow anybody who locks the exposure to get a series of shots that can be edited together cleanly. However, it does not fix the competitive lens problem. * The minimal change to fix the lens problem would be to allow the top wheel to control aperture when in aperture priority mode. Everything else could remain automatic, but please don't reset the exposure lock each time video recording is stopped. * However, the best solution for all is to record video with the same settings (or as close as is practical) as in exposure simulation mode. This is the behavior that users intuitively expect. New users are generally surprised when the exposure simulation settings are lost immediately upon starting a movie mode recording. This solution gives users control without shining lights into the camera, and it would make Canon EF lenses the top choice for photo and video users alike. Note that none of these suggestions require any modification of the camera user interface, or the instruction manual. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 27th, 2009, 09:26 AM	#5
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	I don't see why the can't implement a menu button that switches from the current full auto mode to a full manual mode where the camera works with the same video controls as in still mode. Like Push Live View TWICE for manual mode. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

February 27th, 2009, 01:23 AM	#3
Julius Tan Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Cebu Philippines Posts: 69	Exciting indeed.

February 27th, 2009, 09:32 AM	#6
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	I really doubt this means anything more than that Canon may take our requests under considerations on future products. I have no doubt that this has all taken them by surprise and would not be surprised to see larger sensors on future camcorders.

February 27th, 2009, 09:56 AM	#8
Daniel Jackson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Claymont, Delaware Posts: 25	I am still holding out hope that they will fix it soon. Nikon has to be licking it's chops at the hype over the 5dmk2, they can release a full chip dslr that works well without any concern for their camcorder line. If Nikon gets to market 6 months or a year ahead of Canon, think of how many people will jump over, and the problem of a strong competitor to their camcorder line still exists, they just don't reap any of the profits. If Canon fixes the firmware they can potentially dominate the market and steal a few loyal Nikon users. Fix it Canon, for your own good, really, I am just looking out for you.

February 27th, 2009, 01:55 PM	#9
Julian Frost Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California USA Posts: 576	I don't understand why Canon doesn't use what it already has in the 5D mk II. There's a BIG dial on the top left of the camera body, with several positions on it. One is marked with a green box, another Av, another Tv, and a third, M. Surely, if we were to put the camera in the green box mode, the camera would do everything automatically. If we put the dial in Av mode and set the aperture, the camera could simply lock the aperture there and do everything else automatically. Similarly, if we were to put the dial on Tv, we could set the frame rate (within the limits set by Canon), the camera would lock the frame rate and everything else would be set automatically. And finally, for those of us who want it, we could turn the dial to M and do everything ourselves, just as we do now, and let the camera's brain take a rest! Why would we need extra menus and other extraneous stuff? The camera already does all of this in stills mode! No need to make it more difficult! Julian

February 27th, 2009, 02:33 PM	#10
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	I wrote elsewhere about this yesterday but wasn't comfortable posting it here because I wasn't positive that the quote was from Canon. I think that the last line is saying two things: They're listening and understand our concerns. Please keep it civil and positive. I also think it's very different from what customer and tech support have previously felt they could say in answer to the torrent of complaints from HD users. IMHO it certainly sounds like Canon is looking at a solution.