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Old March 21st, 2009, 08:03 PM   #1
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30.0 vs 29.97.

In the last version of CineForm NeoScene (v1.1.2) we converted Canon 5D footage as 29.97, as that is what our AVCHD reported it as. Since then Canon has confirmed the camera is 30.0 fps, yet that is the wrong frame rate for all your post tools. This meant in the older version there is a video and audio sync mismatch for longer sequences. So I have just uploaded a NeoScene Beta of v1.1.3 that correctly resamples both audio and video to 29.97. At a true 29.97 (rather than 30.0) you will have no frame blending, frame dropping, or sync issues when mixing with other camera sources or master to 29.97fps formats like DVD and BluRay.

Most info on the beta here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/cineform-...e-1-1-3-a.html
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Old March 21st, 2009, 08:11 PM   #2
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Hey David, just for clarification...when you say it "resamples," do you mean that it simply changes the timebase in the file from 30.00 to 29.97 (in other words, a 1/1001th slowdown) without otherwise touching the frames?
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Old March 21st, 2009, 08:19 PM   #3
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For video yes, the frames are not touched (other than conversion to a CineForm wavelet), but the audio we do resample and pitch correct filter. 30 to 29.97 is a 0.1% slow down, while not human perceptable, it is necessary to resample the audio to match the new video rate. The audio resampling engine is been in NEO HD and above for a long time, we just activated it for NeoScene.
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Old March 21st, 2009, 08:55 PM   #4
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You guys at Cineform continue to impress me with how quickly you are on top of these things. Cheers!
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:01 AM   #5
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Thanks Dylan.

To All, any feedback on the changes would be great, as this is a quick public beta, hope for a full release of this version if all is good.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 05:22 AM   #6
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Hi David! Finally I found right thread to ask my question.

I transcode original 5D MOVs to Neoscene and edit in CS4. The problem is that the preview as well as the rendered footage drops frames every 10-20 seconds. I've checked original MOVs and transcoded AVIs - they're playing smoothly. But rendered footage from CS4 is always strobing for couple of seconds.

After few experiments with timeline and export settings I figured out what was the source of the problem for me. Cineform files are 29,97 fps and I used this frame rate in timeline and export settings. And this is the reason I had dropped frames during editing and in the final renders. After I created 30fps timeline and exported at 30fps, final render became smooth as the original footage.

This issue is also true for the latest verison 1.34 build119.

Could you please explain what's wrong with my setup? Thanks.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 10:24 AM   #7
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There is a chance you are running an older importer. In the Adobe folder all of CFHD_*.prm and delete them and reinstall Neo Scene v1.3.4. Neo Scene converted 5D footage should be edited a 29.97, if you found a clip that doesn't, please place it in our ftp dropbox ftp://ftp.cineform.com/pub/incoming and tell he name of the file you up loaded.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 04:13 PM   #8
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David, thanks for your time.

I removed CFHD_*.prm files and reinstalled Neoscene, but unfortunately this didn't fix the problem.

I couldn't use the ftp link you provided, so I uploaded the files to my website instead. Here's the link: http://cinemaproject.ru/cineform/ibabko.zip (257mb). The archive contains the following:

1. original.mov - straight out of the camera footage. Smooth.
2. neoscene.avi - same footage transcoded to Neoscene. Also smooth.
3. render_timeline30_export30.mp4 - both files put to 30p timeline and exported as 30p. Both are smooth.
4. render_timeline30_export2997.mp4 - both files put to 30p timeline and exported as 29,97. Both are smooth.
5. render_timeline2997_export2997.mp4 - both files put to 29,97 timeline and exported as 29,97. Neoscene is strobing, original is smooth
6. render_timeline2997_export30.mp4 - both files put to 29,97 timeline and exported as 30p. Neoscene is strobing, original is smooth

As you can see I get neoscene video strobing when I use 29,97fps timeline.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 05:14 PM   #9
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Your server is not working, reporting days to transfer.
USe ftp://ftp.cineform.com/pub/incoming via an standard windfow file explorer window, drag you files into that window, no ftp client required.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 05:18 PM   #10
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David, would this help with the audio mismatches I have experienced with NeoScene with footage transcoded to 24P from the HV20?

I have found that after I convert 24P HV20 material to Cineform avi in NeoScene, that my audio, which I record separately to a Fostex FR2, does not match up to the audio in the Cineform avi files. It takes a long time for it to get out of sync - these are live recordings of theatrical events, so it seems in sync for 20 minutes or so, but after an hour, the audio is off by several seconds or more.

Oh, and before anyone asks, the audio is a perfect match with the original captures from the HV20.

Have you seen this issue? And will this Beta take care of it?
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Old July 11th, 2009, 05:27 PM   #11
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Mark, We are no longer in beta, so use the new stuff and report back, I have not heard of this issue. Certainly not related to this thread and for HV20 we don't need to do any frame tweaks as it produces a correct 23.976p after pulldown removal. Make sure you have "Split file on scene changes" as that helps prevent glitches at scene changes, potentially throwing sync things off.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 06:11 PM   #12
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What about 25p?

Resampling the audio from 30p to 29.97 sounds great, but Down Under we use PAL - does Cineform also offer resampling so as to maintain sync for 25p?
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Old July 11th, 2009, 06:17 PM   #13
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30 to 29.97 and or 25 to 24 are easy, as change the presentation rate is the norm, not frame interpolation required. Neo HD does off 29.97 to 25 with slow down, but not missing frame interpolation -- you need AE Timewarp to plugins like twixtor for that.

If there is any open source pixel interlation tool that supports 30 to 25, let me know, we will see if we can add that function.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 06:54 PM   #14
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Well...

Lol, i have a call in to tech support right now regarding the 30.00fps/29.97 issue so I guess you already fixed it....

Since your lurkiing here, maybe you can answer my second question/
What is the option in the remaster settings does that says "limit YUV for canon 5d"?

Ive found no reference to it in the documentation.

Using NeoHD for the mac and trying to figure out what that setting does and how it related to the video processing setting in FCP that is recommended in the NeoHD readme (render all YUV material in high precision YUV)
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Old July 11th, 2009, 07:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman View Post
Your server is not working, reporting days to transfer.
USe ftp://ftp.cineform.com/pub/incoming via an standard windfow file explorer window, drag you files into that window, no ftp client required.
David, please see ibabko.zip.
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