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Old June 9th, 2009, 09:23 AM   #1
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Why 25p IS important

This is a reply for the last post by Bill Davis in the now closed "Why 24p is important" thread.

I found it very interesting since he basically says the only reason to want 24p or 25p in the 5D is a very unlikely european distribution of your work or an even more unlikely transfer to film. All that to end up saying that people are complaining for nothing (for a pimple behind Cindy Crawford's knee he says).

While I agree that 99% of the footage shot with the 5D will never get to be shown on a movie screen, he seems to forget that the MOST important reason to add 25p or EVEN 24p in the 5D is the fact that so far there's no use for this camera in PAL land other than watching footage in a computer. You cannot use it for anything else and that includes of course any kind of professional work.

I've noticed some people are quite happy with the last firmware update since they don't need 24p or 25p for their work and manual controls are everything they want, but this is not over.

Canon has offered a very important update since manual controls are a must for ANY kind of professional work, but I said it before and I say it again, releasing a one of a kind professional level camera just for the NTSC standard is a huge mistake. Not because I live in a PAL country, but because MOST of the world is PAL. IMHO that's a HUGE pimple covering a half of Cindy's body.

I don't know if the lack of 24/25p in the 5D is there simply to protect their video products or the famous future professional APS-C video camera (one of the big guys at Canon said "25p is too close to 24p") but I'd like to think if we keep on asking for that feature, it'll eventually be added.

So please, don't stop here! We're very close to an almost perfect camera!
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Old June 9th, 2009, 10:54 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia View Post
Canon has offered a very important update since manual controls are a must for ANY kind of professional work, but I said it before and I say it again, releasing a one of a kind professional level camera just for the NTSC standard is a huge mistake. Not because I live in a PAL country, but because MOST of the world is PAL. IMHO that's a HUGE pimple covering a half of Cindy's body.
As you might have seen from that other thread, some people here actually think that this is "no big deal" and that the post conversion looks "good enough". However, I'm with you -- owning this camera without 24/25p is like dating a supermodel who's oblivious of her big zit on her nose.

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Old June 9th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #3
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Jose,

You're exactly right. As Chris wrote at the end of the previous thread, 25p is critically important. PAL customers should be able shoot video, connect the camera to their PAL TVs and see the result without dropping frames.

Filmmakers want 24p (badly). PAL customers need 25p.

SMPTE acknowledges the need for matching the capture rate and the display rate. There is a proposal within 21 DC to add 25, 30, 50, 60, and optionally 16, 18, and 20 fps to the digital cinema standard. They recognize that not all content is captured at 24 or 48 fps (the current standard), and that the frame rate conversion is problematic. The cheapest and highest quality frame rate conversion is none at all.

My own experience in creating a Blu-ray from international content for international distribution was that the fancy conversions were often flawed and needed hand tweaking of thresholds to deal with varying amounts of motion and focus blur. I ended up using only frame blending or frame drops. (That said, I clearly didn't try all of the possible tools out there.)

So, while some may have developed an acceptable workaround, 24/25p is still critically important. We had workarounds for manual control too, but the real thing is soooo much better. :)
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Old June 9th, 2009, 01:32 PM   #4
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Changing frame rates in post is not a solution.

So, either the world agrees on 30p or give us 25p NOW! ;-DD
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Old June 9th, 2009, 02:18 PM   #5
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For a static talking head interview, will 30p to 25p conversion still be problematic? or is it only with scenes with significant motion?
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Old June 9th, 2009, 03:02 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia View Post
This is a reply for the last post by Bill Davis in the now closed "Why 24p is important" thread.

I found it very interesting since he basically says the only reason to want 24p or 25p in the 5D is a very unlikely european distribution of your work or an even more unlikely transfer to film. All that to end up saying that people are complaining for nothing (for a pimple behind Cindy Crawford's knee he says).
SNIP
e to think if we keep on asking for that feature, it'll eventually be added.

So please, don't stop here! We're very close to an almost perfect camera!

Dear Jose,

Let me start by saying that you're correct, I did ignore the needs of a huge part of the market that works in PAL or other countries that rely on a different frame rate for simple equipment compatibility.

Chalk it up to my typical American-centric stupidity that tends to view everything through the lens of what works over here.

My apologies. I'm working to better keep in mind that forums like DV-I are global in reach and not the on-line equivalent of a local video enthusiasts meeting! Bad on me.

That said, however, there's a clear distinction between the legitimate needs of someone who simply wants their footage to be compatible with THEIR local standard - and the sometimes loud chorus of those who are firmly convince that there's something "magical" about the "filmic motion blur" that can ONLY be achieved by shooting 24p - and who seem to feel that without that magic, their otherwise brilliant video will fail.

I keep trying to be a voice for the reality that in the evolution of any filmmaker, one typically only has time to get around to learning the CRITICAL functions of filmmaking (direction of actors, storytelling, etc. ) AFTER one puts the technical stuff to rest.

And that great movies have NEVER been made exclusively by people who stand around and argue whether a shot would be "superior" if captured with a 50mm prime or with a zoom set on 50mm. Yes, that decision may be momentarily important. Yes, lens light gathering ability and subsequent depth of field effect might even be fundamental to how the scene is viewed by the audience... But what will make the movie WORK or not WORK isn't the aesthetics of the scene but the CONTENT of it. The PERFORMANCE is what will carry it. How the scene relates to the scenes before and after it. Whether the STORY arc is compelling. The perfect filmic look of a crappy, poorly acted scene is STILL just a poorly acted scene. And any director who succeeds at directing the EQUIPMENT or Film Processing and yet fails to direct the MOVIE is going to fail.

That was my point.

Thanks for helping me try not to confuse people with my poor wording and get the point lost in my regrettable US-centric thinking.

Take care.
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Old June 9th, 2009, 04:07 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Brian Luce View Post
For a static talking head interview, will 30p to 25p conversion still be problematic? or is it only with scenes with significant motion?
This would be one of the easier conversions - especially, if it's shot with a deep field of focus and tripod-based. There's low local motion, no global motion, and no blurry edges.

Also, because there is little motion, the audience is less likely to be able to tell the difference between formats anyway - even with dropped frames.

That said, my Dish DVR occasionally plays back with dropped frames. It's very noticeable on sports, but I can detect this even on news/interview shows. Talking heads don't move long in any one direction, but blinks and mouth movements can be instantaneously quick. I don't let the artifact bother me. I just tell myself that the box is attempting "the film look". :)
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Old June 9th, 2009, 06:40 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Bill Davis View Post
And that great movies have NEVER been made exclusively by people who stand around and argue whether a shot would be "superior" if captured with a 50mm prime or with a zoom set on 50mm.
Well, not "exclusively", but still there have been quite a few film-makers who were compulsive that way -- Kieslowski, Kubrick, Tarkovsky, Bergman, etc., come to mind.

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Old June 9th, 2009, 06:51 PM   #9
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As you might have seen from that other thread, some people here actually think that this is "no big deal" and that the post conversion looks "good enough". However, I'm with you -- owning this camera without 24/25p is like dating a supermodel who's oblivious of her big zit on her nose.

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He's baaaaaaaaaack! With another wacky analogy.

Actually a supermodel with a zit is no big deal. A zit can be dealt with. It certainly wouldn't give me pause when dating her.

If she makes good girlfriend material, I personally think the benefits of the dating a supermodel (or any woman for that matter) far outweigh the any minor blemishes she may have (or be oblivious to). The same goes for the 5D. I don't have a zealotry for everything to be perfect. As I stated in the last thread... adapt, improvise, and overcome.

So,I guess your analogy (disregarding the odd female objectification) is correct from a completely subjective viewpoint.

Anyway back to the point. Here's where you may be shocked Peer.

I do think 25p is important. Yup, I said it. For the reasons Jose and Jon state. Jon put it best:

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Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst View Post
Filmmakers want 24p (badly). PAL customers need 25p.
30p can easily be converted to 60i for DVD and Blu-Ray delivery. It cannot be so easily converted to 25p or 50i for that matter. Being able to playback the files in a PAL region is a must. For that reason it is a necessity for people in PAL dominated countries.

That being said. 30p can be converted to 25p (and 24p) with good results, it just happens to be a tedious process. I know because I've done it. I just haven't made a podcast about it.

Pushing 25p I think is way to go towards getting Canons attention. I imagine they will do this before 24p is available. The PAL people need it, it makes business sense, and that makes it a step closer to getting them to implement 24p on the 5D (or future cameras) for NTSC markets.

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Originally Posted by Peer Landa View Post
Well, not "exclusively", but still there have been quite a few film-makers who were compulsive that way -- Kieslowski, Kubrick, Tarkovsky, Bergman, etc., come to mind.

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...Kieslowski, Kubrick, Tarkovsky, Bergman, LANDA, etc.
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Old June 9th, 2009, 07:08 PM   #10
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Actually a supermodel with a zit is no big deal. A zit can be dealt with. It certainly wouldn't give me pause when dating her.
Remember, I said she's "oblivious of her big zit" -- which most likely indicates some more severe dysfunctionally. But go ahead, Tony, date her.

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Pushing 25p I think is way to go towards getting Canons attention. I imagine they will do this before 24p is available.
I agree, and hopefully 25p before 24p. (I'm European after all ;^)

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...Kieslowski, Kubrick, Tarkovsky, Bergman, LANDA, etc.
Thank you Tony, you are so sweet.

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Old June 9th, 2009, 09:50 PM   #11
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Remember, I said she's "oblivious of her big zit" -- which most likely indicates some more severe dysfunctionally. But go ahead, Tony, date her.





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Big zit and personality dysfunction? If she's a supermodel I'm still in.
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Old June 9th, 2009, 11:07 PM   #12
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.. is like dating a supermodel who's oblivious of her big zit on her nose.
Does not compute. Trying to think of a supermodel who doesn't notice zits is making my brain explode.
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Old June 10th, 2009, 03:29 AM   #13
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Well, not "exclusively", but still there have been quite a few film-makers who were compulsive that way -- Kieslowski, Kubrick, Tarkovsky, Bergman, etc., come to mind.

-- peer
ANd IMO, none of those names would be who they are if they hadn't learned to largely keep those discusssions AWAY from the flow of the scene. When they arrived on the set, they, and their cinematographers KNEW which lens they were using and why. Even if there was a field change in the face of set or location circumstances -- that stuff happened BEFORE the cast arrived and "places" was called. So to find them "standing around" and "chatting" about stuff like this - other than, perhaps, on a break for lunch, would be IDIOCY. Heck, in my corporate work, we've figured that on some of our modest little sets we're burning literally THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars an hour in the time value of not just gear - but in crew and talent costs and the time value of corporate executives standing around waiting to do their on-camera bits. On a REAL movie, that's probably measured in tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars and hour. So you're telling me that it's OK for the director to engage in a 20 minute discussion of LENSES while burning through that kind of coin? Not going to happen.

Look, I've been a guest on two major movie sets in the past, and I've also been a guest or crewed on low budget digital films. One big difference is that on the small sets, the directors spent 80 percent of their time and energy directing THINGS - like camera placement, lights, shots, (lens choices!). etc. On the real films the directors paid little attention to that stuff and knew well in advance what was going to happen regarding physical equipment shot angles, recording, etc. and they concentrated on directing the PERFORMANCES.

Not surprising that they're the directors who've graduated OUT of the junior leagues, IMO.

Just something to think about since so many here have hopes of working their way up the ladder some day.
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Old June 10th, 2009, 04:47 AM   #14
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Remember, I said she's "oblivious of her big zit" -- which most likely indicates some more severe dysfunctionally. But go ahead, Tony, date her.
Dysfunctional supermodels need love too.


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Originally Posted by Peer Landa View Post
Thank you Tony, you are so sweet.
I meant that in regards to the whole "compulsion" aspect, but hey it is good company to be associated with none the less


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I agree, and hopefully 25p before 24p. (I'm European after all ;^)
Peer and I agree on something... and with that the first sign of the apocalypse is upon us.
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Old June 10th, 2009, 05:13 AM   #15
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I say only this:

the day this camera will shoot in 25P I will buy it.

So if the Canon want my money they have to add this feature.


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