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Old June 12th, 2009, 07:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles W. Hull View Post
Steve, there are several few good workflows for 5DII files with PPro CS4. In reverse order of my preference:

1. Render the files (time consuming but works great)
2. Transcode to high quality MP4. (CS4 loves to display MP4. I use Adobe Media Encoder to transcode. You can also just re-wrap from MOV to MP4 which is quick but has some downsides).
3. Cineform. I use NeoScene. (Yes the current version can stutter a little - but not too badly.)

If you pick a method I can fill in the blanks a little more. There are a few other workflows as well.

I'm getting pretty happy with CS4.1; more stable than 4.0 and projects load much faster.
Charles - if it wouldn't be too much trouble I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say about using neoscene - filling in the blanks. I've been considering buying it.

Thanks,
Fred
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Old June 13th, 2009, 01:06 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred LeFevre View Post
Charles - if it wouldn't be too much trouble I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say about using neoscene - filling in the blanks. I've been considering buying it.
First, I'm a fan of NeoScene. Cineform has jumped in and taken the pain out of editing 5DII files with Premiere Pro. Here is what you get:

Fast batch transcoding (the process to convert MOVs to AVIs goes very quickly)
Usually plays smoothly in Premiere in the Automatic Quality mode, even after some color editing, but may stutter a little now and then
A very high quality editing format that survives many generations of editing (important to my tasks and style)
The correct method to take 10bit color into the 8bit editor (avoids color banding)
Converts 30 fps to 29.97 using all frames, and converts sound to match (the correct frame rate for down stream applications - Blu Ray)

The workflow:

Open NeoScene, then the Convert tab, Select Files and add the batch of MOV files to be transcoded
Under Prefs select High Quality and the Target Directory
Start
Read a little e-mail
When finished place the AVI files in the PPro timeline for editing

NeoScene also has a 10 bit exporter from PPro so you can edit in parts and then combine the high quality files for further editing.

I believe Video Guys still sells NeoScene for $99. If you use NeoScene check the Cineform website frequently for updates.
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Old June 13th, 2009, 05:17 AM   #18
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Different Formats

Thanks for the info Charles. Many times I'll be mixing between three different camera formats - Sony Handicam, Canon XH-A1 and the 5D Mark II so it's looking like NeoScene may be the solution to get those into the same format.

Thanks,
Fred
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Old June 13th, 2009, 09:22 AM   #19
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It should be mentioned that as nice as Neoscene is, it is the lowest version of Cineform.

It does a fantastic job on the 5D files... but if you want more you should also explore
the other options that Cineform has to offer...

I use Neoscene on a laptop just for the 5D files when I'm out of town... just for ingest
and archive...

I also use Cineform Prospect on my editing workstations....

So I can ingest from the 5D while out in the field with Neoscene and bring the external hard drive back and do the editing on the workstations using Prospect....

Prospect and some of the other Cineform products allows editing of the 5D and other
cameras just as if you were editing RAW footage with their First Light options...
there are lots of extra solutions that you will get in those packages...

The best thing I like about Prospect is that it allows me to mix any footage from
many different cameras seamlessly.

Just saying, as nice as Neoscene is, and it is nice, don't forget to explore the other
options that Cineform has to offer....

they have tryouts to work with before purchase....
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Old June 13th, 2009, 11:55 AM   #20
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thank you

Thanks to Charles for your very full and helpful response to my question (and to many others).

Bob
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Old June 13th, 2009, 01:59 PM   #21
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I have been using neoscene for quite a while now with my 5d footage and it is awesome. Before cs4 premiere 4.1 there was some issues with preniere but not cineform but now everything flys with my core i7 and is really simple. I also have a macbook pro and neoscene with it is ok, but i use it for backup and general acquisition in the field then get into more complex editing on the pc at home
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Old June 14th, 2009, 04:53 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Tabilas View Post
...I used the windows program SUPER to rewrap the 5d Mark II's MOV files to MP4.
Does this method maintain the 0-255 range ... or does it "clip" it to 16-235?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Tabilas View Post
- Drag and drop original 5d video onto Super
- Select MP4 as container type
- Select Direct Stream Copy for the video option (no re-encoding)
- Select Disable Audio for the audio option

Now you'll need to do the audio on it's own.
Does the program not allow you to import the audio at the same time as the video?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Tabilas View Post
Has been working great for me. It is a mystery as to why premiere is ok with Canon's H264 codec in a .mp4 container, but not in a .mov or .avi container.
Premiere won't work with .AVI's?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Tabilas View Post
Note - During the container change you will lose the pixel aspect flag that tells premiere how to display the vid, so you'll have to manually interpret the vid as square pixels (right click in bin on the vid clip and select interpret) Premiere reports the resolution as 1920 x 1088, but upon further investigation it is infact still 1080
Thanks for this heads up note!!
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Old June 14th, 2009, 09:39 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Clark View Post
Does this method maintain the 0-255 range ... or does it "clip" it to 16-235?
1. Unfortunately, the rewrapping into MP4 method makes the levels clip from 16-235
2. SUPER can open the audio at the same time, and you can either A) "copy" the audio to a WAV file or B) transcode it to AAC LC in the new MP4. In other words, you can have a separate MP4 and WAV file, or have the new MP4 have both un-transcoded (full quality minus levels clipping) video, and the transcoded/compressed audio.
3. Premiere Pro can open AVIs, it just cannot scrub or play smoothly the original 5D Mark II MOVs, unless you re-wrap the MOV container into a MP4 container.

Try it yourself and see if it works.

3a. Alternatively, Or you can re-wrap using Quicktime, transcode to a MP4 container using Adobe Media Encoder like others suggest, or transcode to a Cineform codec like NeoScene.

At the end of the day, Premiere Pro CS4 can easily scrub/play the MP4 files as if they were native DV AVI files, HDV M2T files, AVCHD MTS files, XDCAM MP4 files, P2 MXF files, etc.
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Old June 14th, 2009, 12:17 PM   #24
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YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN AWESOME!

LET ME SAY THIS.... I'M DONE WITH THIS!

Allan - thanks for the in-depth info man! i may try it but to tell you the truth with so much going on, and being the type of person to never quit, i find myself spending more time being a mad scientist of data and transcodings in my geek dungeon, than i do filming and being creative. i thought i could shoot and copy and drag the clips on the timeline from the mkii. not so! with my i7, it took a minute to render each minute of video. 2 hours of video, 2 hours to render. i could have used tape. then after that i have to wrap to mp4? man, what a hassle. from now on i'm using tape and capturing from my hd video cams and only using the mkii when i really need to. i hate to resort to that but this is crazy. my huge 2 hour mov timeline freezes and locks in cs4 when it feels like it. cs4 hates mov.

having said that, on to Nigel....

hey, i wasn't ignoring what you said and i know you didn't say go to mac BUT, you got me thinking. i was actually thinking of selling this machine, and taking a little loss and getting a mac for video editing only. final cut. what mac do you suggest. i never had a mac before. i'm a pc geek. i have the iphone and ipod and love the products. i know it's easy to work with. i was thinking of the mac where the os is in the screen. no laptop. what do you suggest for video editing. AND if i were to do this.... will final cut handle avi and mpeg2 files that i shoot from my hd video cams? will final cut just capture via .mov then from my canon XH A1? thanks! i'm really not looking for this crazy mad scientist approach and just want stuff to work. i'm for mac if it's seamless and makes my job better.

currently i cannot import this timeline into encore..it's crashing everything. i just need to get this footage of my son's first time at the zoo, and all the other great stuff onto disc. i am not going to attempt blu-ray, just hi quality dvd unfortunately. i want to get this done and move on. i'm rendering the entire timeline... 2 hours.... and then will try again to import into encore. if that doesn't work then i will export to mpeg2, then import that file into cs4, then export to encore. what a pain.

thanks,
steve
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Old June 14th, 2009, 12:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Rotter View Post
YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN AWESOME!

LET ME SAY THIS.... I'M DONE WITH THIS!

Allan - thanks for the in-depth info man! i may try it but to tell you the truth with so much going on, and being the type of person to never quit, i find myself spending more time being a mad scientist of data and transcodings in my geek dungeon, than i do filming and being creative. i thought i could shoot and copy and drag the clips on the timeline from the mkii. not so! with my i7, it took a minute to render each minute of video. 2 hours of video, 2 hours to render. i could have used tape. then after that i have to wrap to mp4? man, what a hassle. from now on i'm using tape and capturing from my hd video cams and only using the mkii when i really need to. i hate to resort to that but this is crazy. my huge 2 hour mov timeline freezes and locks in cs4 when it feels like it. cs4 hates mov.

thanks,
steve
Steve, no problem. I think a lot of people are having issues editing 5D Mark II MOV files with Premiere CS4, whether on the Mac or PC version.

Re-wrapping the MOV files into MP4 is fairly quick (at least 20MB per second, equivalent to 4x real time of a 5MBytes/40MBits per second), even though it is another step. You are not transcoding the files -- you are not recompressing the files. So you will not lose quality, other than Premiere Pro clipping the RGB levels from 0-255 to 16-235. Steve, it's another step, but it is manageable.

So it's a decent solution (in addition) to using an intermediate codec like Cineform, or say Apple ProRes for Final Cut Pro. Transcoding to those intermediate codecs takes up additional time, and substantially more disk space, though the big benefit for those codecs are made for multi-generation workflows, color grading, etc.

Attached is a screenshot of SUPER re-wrapping a MOV file into MP4, but also transcoding the audio from the original uncompressed LPCM into AAC Main audio. (you can also do stream copy and write out to a separate WAV file)

1) Select Output container as mp4, outvideo codec as h.264/AVC
2) Select Stream Copy as it will not transcode the video, simply rewrapping the video
3) Right click, select Output File Save Management, and select a location
4) Drag your original 5D Mark II MOV file into the SUPER window
5) Hit Encode
Attached Thumbnails
workflow for editing 5d mkii via PPro CS4 ??-super-cs4-mov-mp4-01.gif  
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Old June 15th, 2009, 10:17 AM   #26
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Thanks guys for giving us a selection of your 'proven workflows' on PPro CS4.

It still appears that what works for one may not work for another.

For instance Charles says that PP CS4 loves mp4's. Alas when I use AME to make an mp4 the way he suggests I still can't play smoothly at 1920x1080 mp4. If I drop to 720x480, I can easily play it but it looks really crap. Very pixellated.
I've tried NeoScene...very big avi's but not smooth and I've used Super which also still glitched.
I've just dropped the 5D2 mov's on the PPro timeline and rendered, which worked fine and I'll keep trying with that but I think making up a resonable length movie will still lead to problem playback on my existing PC.
I may therefore return to making mpeg2's which my machine plays best of all.

I guess it's all down to the power of your PC once you get around the fact that the 5D2's mov's won't play in PP4 natively and you'll have to choose a suitable 'wrapper'.

David T.
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Old June 15th, 2009, 12:16 PM   #27
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Dave, you're right. thanks for your insight... great info.

what was the point to going tapeless? this takes longer than real time. with no proven method it's taken me even longer.

for video i will be using my Canon HV30 and XHA1, using the mkii only for when i really need it, since this is such a pain. i dumped 3.5 hours mkii footage to DVD which resulted in 4.5 gigs on the iso image. quality isn't the best, looks like average SD. i did a re-edit late last night, trimming it down to just 2 hours. exported to encore again but this time as mpeg2 for bluray with 35 CBR. i will check quality tonight. maybe when i get time, over the weekend, i will try the H.264 for bluray. i have read quality isn't that much "better" with h.264, it just saves on space with similar results to mpeg2 and takes MUCH LONGER. i will stick with mpeg2 for bluray at 2 hours.

anyway, here is what i did. after the ppro 4.1 update, i just dropped all clips in the timeline, rendered entire timeline (realtime) and edited, then exported to encore as mpeg2 for bluray. timeframe is the same as recording to tape and capturing.

while looking for an imac today for video editing only, i found adobe has released CS4 4.1 this is supposed to address the issue in this thread. they say it will prevent all the rewrapping and will support all files, even .vob files right off disc. i hope so.

Steve

Last edited by Steve Rotter; June 16th, 2009 at 10:39 AM.
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