Definitely glad that you are still working on this, Tramm. Your impact is much appreciated.

While this update is great, I had hoped for a few more functionalities. The sad thing is, now that the engineers have finished this update, they will likely move on the the next iteration of the 5D. This could be the last Canon update for this camera barring hiccups with the new firmware, so hopes for 60p and 1080i out is dashed. ML could be our only hope for the continued evolution of the the current 5D.

Martin, ideally you always want to monitor the end of an audio chain, not the middle...and with phones, not a visual. Transient peaks and other issues including AC interference in the last cable etc. could be present in the last gain stage in the camera. You never rely on a good level and clean signal from a mixer that then gets cabled to another device. all that matters is the signal going to "tape".

If there were a problem at the 5DII then isolating it is simple in the signal path - mic>cable>mixer>cable>5D.

If you monitor it at the mixer and just rely on visuals then you can't identify signal path issues.

This goes back to my previous post. In the studio, one of the first lessons you learn in dealing with complex signal paths is the principle of unity gain and level matching. Even when things look great across the board, sometimes on dozens and dozens of VU meters, ultimately all that matters is what's coming out of the monitors - which is why most of us have very expensive monitoring systems and acoustically controlled rooms for mixing.

If you're recording audio into the 5D it's just a small portable version of this principle.

I totally agree, I picked up a 7D as a second camera to my 5D mainly because I wanted 720/60 and the ability to go from a wide prime to a long lens quickly. I was really disappointed in the results of the 7D at 720 though, I sent it back in the end and will probably go for a second 5D instead as having two different control setups kept catching me out. It would be nice if the Set/OK button on the 7D could be set to do video start / stop as an option :)

Ultimately we should be awfully pleased with a system that started out with gorgeous footage but flawed controls that now has gorgeous footage and extensive controls.

We bought what we bought knowing it's limitations. To Canon's credit, in just over a year they've evolved it to one of the coolest creative tools ever...for free.

Hey, you've now got on of the best photographic tools you could want and one of the best film making tools you could want, all in one small, affordable package.

It's got some moire issues but so do a lot of things and it doesn't limit me in any way.
It isn't RED but it's a lot closer to it than not (unless you're the .01% that's projecting in the theater)

It ain't perfect but neither is life, and I'm pretty happy with both.

Thanks for the replies Jon and Jim. That are good arguments which I didn't consider. Let's hope Canon also offers live audio level meters.

Well said. Let's hear it for Canon. I'm impressed.

"Now, EOS 5D Mark II shooters will be able to monitor and manually adjust audio levels prior to shooting. In addition, the sampling frequency has increased from 44.1 KHz to 48 KHz."

I guest this means you dont have meters while actually recording. Weak.

Back to Magic Lantern....

"Improved audio functionality will allow users to set sound record levels manually using a sound-level meter displayed on the LCD screen. The audio sampling frequency has also been increased from 44.1KHz to 48KHz, providing the optimum audio signal typically required for professional or broadcast material."

Isn't it also a bit weak to be riding the audio levels while recording? AGC anyone?

-- peer

With the Audio adjustment feature, does this mean they are allowing you to finally defeat the AGC or is that still in place?

That's correct -- the new software defeats the AGC.

-- peer

Presumably the new software gives the option to disable the AGC.

I dunno about you, but its nice to have CONFIRMATION that you STILL have audio while recording (whether it be meters or audio/headphones.)


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Yes Audio Auto Gain can be turned off completely, by this firmware. And it looks like you can also dial in the amount of gain to be added too.

Audiowise, Nothing new of what Tramm already hasnt done.

Not sure if this is what you were getting at, but yeah, I like to have control over my levels on the fly. First of all, if you're clipping, at least you can do something about it, and second of all, a human riding the gain a little here or there is a lot different than some dumb program doing it. In live event sound, the FOH will often ride the gain if necessary. I personally think of that as a completely different thing (e.g., a human doesn't max out the gain when there's no signal to the point of bringing the noise floor way up, but a human might ride the gain up for a quiet speaker or some other legit reason). Also, riding gain is a huge part of mastering audio, oftentimes it's much preferable to compression or limiting. Now, of course, typically mastering done in post, but the main point remains, that is manually riding gain has its uses and it's very different from AGC IMHO (not to mention how bad Canon's implementation of AGC was).

On another note, one thing that I worry about is how they set the gain based on the manual interface. Because of ML, we know there are actually two parts to the gain they use, analog and digital. I sure hope they ride the analog up first (with no digital), before they start dipping into the digital gain. I know that with a preamp and the digital gain down to zero, I get a pretty clean signal, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they messed that up. So, I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of us end up using ML just for audio reasons still (more control over how gain is applied, and live meters).

Peer and Bill,

You're both right. Riding the gain poorly is no better than AGC. But riding the gain well can rescue a signal from clipping or being too low, and can potentially save time in post.

I've read of mixers pushing the gain at the end of phrases for speakers who tend to trail off their words. I know that I've had to do that in post more times than I'd like!

If AGC were as smart as a really skilled live mixer, I'd leave it on. ;)

Of course, if you can get a *really* clean 24-bit signal path, you can just set the levels conservatively and do everything in post without worrying about clipping or noise.