Magic Lantern and Canon's 2.0.4 firmware

[Bill Binder]

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

By lowering the MKII audio levels, you effectively took the in-camera preamps out of the equation and let the Juicedlink preamps do all of the work.

If Canon was more serious about making this more of a video camera (or allowed to) they would have added a line level audio setting for external devices.

Funny thing is, most consumer/prosumer cameras that have "line-in" just pad the inputs and send everything through their preamps anyway. Of course feeding a hot signal into something like that is better than nothing, but you're most often still stuck working in a signal path that goes through the (usually) inferior preamps. That said, it's almost entirely acceptable to all but the true audiophile snob, LOL.

[Bill Binder]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

I just completed some noise tests with the juicedLink CX231 and FW 2.0.4 with and without Magic Lantern's 0.1.8 alpha code.

Here's what I found:

* Magic Lantern with m_gain set to +17dB and d_gain set to 0 is within 0.1 dB of 2.0.4 firmware at three ticks above the minimum.

* Using a Rode NT-1A (an exceptionally quiet mic) in a dead space, Magic Lantern shows 8dB less noise than the Canon code, statistically. Most of ML's noise is at the low end. It's MUCH cleaner at high frequencies.

* The previous Canon code had a DC offset in the left channel, with and without Magic Lantern. The new Canon code has fixed the DC offset issue with and without ML.

The bottom line is that the Canon code is nice and clean. With the juicedLink, it's just a bit noisier than the H4n or DR-100, but it's solid. With the Magic Lantern 0.1.8 alpha code on top of 2.0.4, the noise is exceptionally low.

More testing to follow...

I'll bet good money this is a direct result of Canon using some combination of digital and analog gain where with ML, we can bring everything down low and only use analog gain in many cases (with an external preamp). It's pretty clear to me that this in concert with no live levels and no monitoring leaves plenty of room for ML to still add a lot of value in the workflow (despite it's extra steps). I was kind of hoping for someone like me (who mostly has been using ML for the audio features), the new firmware would obsolete ML, but obviously not. Although I guess the other really nice feature is zebras, got to like those zebras. And if we could get auto-restart on 4 gig limit, THAT WOULD BE HUGE IMHO (even if it's not a seamless split, which I'm sure it wouldn't be, it would still be AWESOME).

[Joe Ray Skrha]

Dear Jon. Bill, Chris or Tramm,
I am going on a private vintage train (sleepers, dome car, diner, etc) this Saturday for a week. I will be traveling with many fellow musicians. I will be filming with my 5DMKII and CX431. While I have Neumann and Schoeps microphones, I anticipate using line feeds from soundboards.
Would ML 1.8 be available by Saturday to download? I want it for the 8dB of cleaner sound. I shot a concert last week using 2.0.4 with the Manual audio on Click 1 and was very impressed at the improvement over previous firmware. Still, I can't turn down an extra 8dB of less noise. If you think it's stable enough for the audio benefits of ML 1.8, is it possible to access it? If so, where can I find a link??? I appreciate all the help and will be making a donation. Peace, Joe Ray Skrha at: joeray@alaska.net

[Hannu Korpinen]

Alfa version is here. Go down and take the latest. Be careful and after filming take battery out, always.
0.1.8-alpha for 2.0.4 - Magic Lantern firmware development | Google Groups

[Jon Fairhurst]

So far, ML 0.1.8 has been solid for me. I haven't done extensive tests though. As recommended, remove the battery often, just in case.

Sounds like a fantastic train ride. Is it the one in the Pacific Northwest?

[Bill Binder]

Originally Posted by Joe Ray Skrha

Dear Jon. Bill, Chris or Tramm,
I am going on a private vintage train (sleepers, dome car, diner, etc) this Saturday for a week. I will be traveling with many fellow musicians. I will be filming with my 5DMKII and CX431. While I have Neumann and Schoeps microphones, I anticipate using line feeds from soundboards.
Would ML 1.8 be available by Saturday to download? I want it for the 8dB of cleaner sound. I shot a concert last week using 2.0.4 with the Manual audio on Click 1 and was very impressed at the improvement over previous firmware. Still, I can't turn down an extra 8dB of less noise. If you think it's stable enough for the audio benefits of ML 1.8, is it possible to access it? If so, where can I find a link??? I appreciate all the help and will be making a donation. Peace, Joe Ray Skrha at: joeray@alaska.net

Given that description, why run audio into the 5D2 at all? I do a lot of music, and the thought of recording it in camera never even crosses my mind, heh. Way easier, and depending on gear, way better quality, to just go double system sound for anything music related -- at least that's my two cents.

[Tim Polster]

That is if you have a sync to avoid audio drift. It is not as simple as just recording to your sound device of choice and letting it and the video run separately.

I use a digital timepiece for larger music jobs, and it keeps the time pretty close, but it is not practical for all recording situations.

[Evan Donn]

Have you actually experienced any drift recording dual system with these cameras? Remember you're never shooting more than 12 minutes of video in a single take - I've never seen a clip up to that length drift noticeably.

[Tim Polster]

No, I am still in a testing phase with the vDSLRs. But I will say I have never known any video camera and an external recording device to be in sync. They all use different crystals.

I have seen footage drift after five minutes and would prefer not to sync and re-sync in post.

Are you implying that a few frames out of sync is o.k.? Maybe for a motion picture with ADR and a lot of cutting but not for music recording.

I have never used the sync software people talk about but I wonder if audio integrity is retained after the stretch.

[William Chung]

Hey guys,

I know video peaking has been on the list for Tramm for awhile but has he ever made any post about whether or not it was really possible to do this through firmware?

Thanks

[Hannu Korpinen]

Originally Posted by William Chung

Hey guys,

I know video peaking has been on the list for Tramm for awhile but has he ever made any post about whether or not it was really possible to do this through firmware?

Thanks

You will find it in menu with name "Edge detect". Edge detect and zebras are working only with camera. External monitor (Marshall hdmi) is showing them in false places.

[Joe Ray Skrha]

Today I installed the DN 101 0n my CX431. Let me review: New firmware 2.0.4 with manual-1 click... With ML 1.8 the audio is much clearer and it has less noise. I then add the DN-101 and I used the headphones to monitor the sound... The honeymoon stops here... According to what I read, JuicedLink recommends we pan all feeds to the left channel. All unwanted noise is put on the other channel. When we save the video on Soundtrack Pro, we are to delete the noise channel and convert the audio to mono giving us sound on both channels. I did it and it seems to work...but what a pain. Additionally, when using DN-101, you cannot rely on their meters. I suggest you rely on ML meters only. Second, the sound you hear in the headphone jack is also very distorted and not reliable. Hence, the only use of the DN101 is to separate the sound channels which will give us MONO at best.
Any suggestions or have I screwed up somewhere... Appreciate anyones thoughts. Joe Ray at: joeray@alaska.net

[Joe Ray Skrha]

I continued working with ML 1.8 and CX431 (with mic input setting and gain high) with a DN101... I set the ML analog gain 10dB and Digital gain to 0. I compared the sound with and without the DN101. Honestly, I cannot see an advantage using the DN101. The meters on the ML are much better and accurate, the headphone output on A/V is much better than DN101 and the audio on the ML remains in stereo compared to the DN101 which is mono.
Does anyone have a different opinion? Also, Jon, Chris, has anyone had better results with different audio settings with ML? I am running soundboard unbalanced RCA to XLR but because of the low volume out of the soundboard, I had to have the CX431 set to mic instead of line. Again, any thoughts??? Peace, Joe Ray at: joeray@alaska.net

[Chris Barcellos]

Joe:

DN101 is not for Magic Lantern. It is for those who don't use ML, and want to shut down the AGC. And Yes, in that case, you are giving up one channel, and your recording will be mono. Last year in April /May, before ML, I had used an MP3 player with a 16kz tone to do the same thing they are doing with the DN101.

What are you using to get sound to headphones from the 5D ? Are you boosting with an amp ?

[Evan Donn]

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

I have seen footage drift after five minutes and would prefer not to sync and re-sync in post.

Are you implying that a few frames out of sync is o.k.? Maybe for a motion picture with ADR and a lot of cutting but not for music recording.

I have never used the sync software people talk about but I wonder if audio integrity is retained after the stretch.

I use pluraleyes which doesn't stretch the audio at all - it just determines the sync between camera and the external audio and lines them up. You can get bad drift in FCP if you get the sequence settings wrong (far less likely with the latest firmware upgrade) but as long as settings are correct there's no drift that I notice. I'm not doing a lot of music, primarily interviews, but if it is drifting by a frame or so over a 12 minute clip it doesn't seem to be enough to notice with a person talking. Maybe more so with some music performances, just haven't really tested that.