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Canon EOS Full Frame for HD
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Old March 25th, 2010, 01:46 PM   #1
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AVID and 5D - why nobody mentions it?

Hey guys!

I am just wondering - since I got this 5D Mk II - about a month ago - I've spent quite amount of time here and on other 5D-related Forums...

I had questions about everything - mostly considering compression and editing...

And since I am coming originally from VIDEO/FILM world - I wonder how come NOBODY even mentions AVID as solution to edit material...

Has anyone tried it???

As you might know - Avid re-codes all imported footage in its own format (using NX-HD codec), but I wonder do you think that loss of quality is greater when imported in AVID then re-coded with Cineform NEOSCENE to AVI and imported in PPRO or any other NLE-app?
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Old March 25th, 2010, 02:43 PM   #2
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DNxHD is visually lossless when bringing in video from the DSLRs. Therefore there is nothing to talk about. Import footage, edit. Done.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 04:34 PM   #3
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I'll mention it

I was careful to test Avid's ability to import the 5D mov files having gone from an AVCHD Sony camera before this one and messing with re-coding which never really let me see my video as crisply as the raw mt2s files. Yet it was faster than capturing tape from the Z1P.

Avid Media Composer's ability to handle different frame rates and codecs has really impressed me. It is very easy to edit with, stable and fast. It's been the most pleasureable editing experience for me, ever.

I started way back on Adobe Premiere (massive effect rendering times), moved from Pinnacle Edition (a little unstable and hard to learn) to Liquid Edition, Xpress Pro Studio (expensive) and now Media Composer (well priced, rock solid and easy to use).

This latest version of Avid has been fantastic.

Even though I am a pure amateur/hobbyist, I really recommend the 5D2 and MC4.

With regards

Jeff
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Old March 25th, 2010, 06:03 PM   #4
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That's very reassuring. I'm a Liquid user so I qualify for the massive discount that Avid are offering on Media Composer now that Liquid is being terminated.
I love Liquid; best-designed piece of software I have ever used. But I'm reassured to hear such positive things being said about Media Composer.
And I'm a 5D2 owner too :-)
Thanks for the feedback.
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Old March 26th, 2010, 11:27 AM   #5
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Hey Perrone, how about that Fig Rig???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
DNxHD is visually lossless when bringing in video from the DSLRs. Therefore there is nothing to talk about. Import footage, edit. Done.
First of all - thank you guys for answering!

And I see in Perrone Ford's details that you use a FigRig!

I am considering getting it, but (except Mr. Bloom and some other well known artists), what keeps me from making the final step and purchase it is many Pro/Cons I've red - from regular users...

I wonder would you recommend it? Is it worth the money? Does it stabilize the picture - I especially like it 'cause of its possibility to hang your Mic, Light and such stuff on it as well...

I already own SteadyCam, and I know FIG-RIG isn't one! - but it seems to me that it can be handy for fast moves, rapid panning and tilting and going through narrow spaces etc...

What I've tried is, I took my Canon 5D Mk II, put it on the tripod (without its legs spread nor extended - I just spread two legs in little upside-down V shape - with camera on the top of that upside-done "V" - and when I start walking and shooting - the picture is so much more stable and controlled looking!

And it seems to me that Fig Rig does kind of similar thing ... first, it ads some weight to construction and moves your hands away from camera body itself...
If it shows similar result as this test with my tripod - great + extra possibility to hang pieces of equipment on it!

And tell me one thing - I can't find this detail in any specs, and I'd love it to exist....
So, IS THERE A TRIPOD MOUNTING HOLE somewhere on the Rig, so that you can put entire Rig, (with attached mic and light), and screw Tripod plate on it - ergo - put it on Tripod???

It would be cool in some situations for me!
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Old March 26th, 2010, 12:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanja Marin View Post
First of all - thank you guys for answering!

And I see in Perrone Ford's details that you use a FigRig!
Yes, I do, and I use it often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanja Marin View Post
I am considering getting it, but (except Mr. Bloom and some other well known artists), what keeps me from making the final step and purchase it is many Pro/Cons I've red - from regular users...
At some point, you just have to make a decision. I listened to the crowd as well, and in the end decided it was what I needed. You just need to make a well informed choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanja Marin View Post
I wonder would you recommend it? Is it worth the money? Does it stabilize the picture - I especially like it 'cause of its possibility to hang your Mic, Light and such stuff on it as well...
I recommend it, ONLY if it meets your needs. I cannot determine if it's worth the money for you. It certainly was for me. Does it stabiize the picture? Maybe. It gives a hand-held look, without being jittery. But it does require practice. Yes, you can hang a lot of stuff on it, but I think that is not a smart choice. If your normal look is to put a light on the camera, and you normally put a mic on the camera, then the figrig can also do those things. But that is not the way I film. It can get heavy quite quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanja Marin View Post
I already own SteadyCam, and I know FIG-RIG isn't one! - but it seems to me that it can be handy for fast moves, rapid panning and tilting and going through narrow spaces etc...
It is handy in that it allows for all the basic and compound moves to the extent your arms can do them. You can crab, crane, push in or out, tilt, dutch, etc. It isn't a small unit, so going through narrow spaces may not be as simple as it might seem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanja Marin View Post
What I've tried is, I took my Canon 5D Mk II, put it on the tripod (without its legs spread nor extended - I just spread two legs in little upside-down V shape - with camera on the top of that upside-done "V" - and when I start walking and shooting - the picture is so much more stable and controlled looking!
We used a 5DMk2 on the FigRig for our movie. The director loved the look so much in pre-production, he wanted to shoot the entire movie on it. In the end, we used the Fig Rig and a shoulder brace. But the director WANTED a voyeuristic and handheld look to the film. Otherwise a steadicam would have been a better choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanja Marin View Post
And it seems to me that Fig Rig does kind of similar thing ... first, it ads some weight to construction and moves your hands away from camera body itself...
If it shows similar result as this test with my tripod - great + extra possibility to hang pieces of equipment on it!
I think that is exactly what you will get. And if that is the look you want, then you'll be just fine. I can show you examples of Fig Rig footage with the 5D on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanja Marin View Post
And tell me one thing - I can't find this detail in any specs, and I'd love it to exist....
So, IS THERE A TRIPOD MOUNTING HOLE somewhere on the Rig, so that you can put entire Rig, (with attached mic and light), and screw Tripod plate on it - ergo - put it on Tripod???
There is not a tripod mounting hole. The unit is round so it couldn't accommodate one. There are some inexpensive copies of the Fig Rig which do have this though. None are as well constructed as the Fig Rig, but they may do the job you need.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanja Marin View Post
It would be cool in some situations for me!
It is very cool for me.
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Old March 27th, 2010, 08:03 AM   #7
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Avid

Hi
sorry to work with AVID without any hassle
mostly...huuu it runs on Mac
and that is not the first choice here
Win 97% Mac 2.1% Linux the rest......
have a nice weekend
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Old March 27th, 2010, 09:08 AM   #8
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Just picked up a MII and cut in Avid MC.
I'm on a caldigit RAID and the the footage scrubs like butter.
CC is a breeze and holds up very well.
(FWIW- I tried the footage in a FCP and had problems- but I prefer Avid anyway)
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Old March 28th, 2010, 03:47 PM   #9
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Big thank you, Perrone and everyone else

Thank you a lot, Perrone, for a long answer - it must've taken some time do write it - I appreciate it a lot...

... as much as I appreciate every other helpful answer in here!

One of the nicest Forum communities I hang in for a long time!:)
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Old March 29th, 2010, 09:59 AM   #10
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Pros and Cons

Why not Avid? If you mean Media Composer, here is why not:
- clumsy interface;
- reversed alpha channel(against the rest of the industry, "for historical reasons");
- importing takes ages and spaces;
- rendering is similar to other NLEs;
- for the price of an MC license(2295 USD MSRP / 2118 euro - BTW I wonder what exchange rate are they using?) you buy an entire Adobe CS4 Master Collection(2499 USD MSRP); Media Composer is a single application, while Master Collection is a... collection :). Anyhow, for Media Composer + After Effects one would pay about 3300 USD.
- Even cheaper(only 1699 USD) is Adobe Production Premium which includes: Adobe After Effects CS4, Adobe Premiere Pro CS4, Photoshop CS4 Extended, Flash CS4 Professional, Illustrator CS4, Soundbooth CS4, Adobe OnLocation CS4, and Encore CS4 with additional tools and services.

God bless us all!
Christian I. Ionescu
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Old March 29th, 2010, 10:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Ionescu View Post
Why not Avid? If you mean Media Composer, here is why not:
- clumsy interface;
Your opinion. I found the interface very intuitive once I spent a week with it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Ionescu View Post
- rendering is similar to other NLEs;
And this is bad why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Ionescu View Post
- for the price of an MC license(2295 USD MSRP / 2118 euro - BTW I wonder what exchange rate are they using?) you buy an entire Adobe CS4 Master Collection(2499 USD MSRP); Media Composer is a single application, while Master Collection is a... collection :).
Your information is incorrect. What is being referred to here as Media Composer, is also a "collection". But if you didn't know that, then I have to seriously question if you know anything at all about the program.

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Originally Posted by Christian Ionescu View Post
Anyhow, for Media Composer + After Effects one would pay about 3300 USD.
- Even cheaper(only 1699 USD) is Adobe Production Premium which includes: Adobe After Effects CS4, Adobe Premiere Pro CS4, Photoshop CS4 Extended, Flash CS4 Professional, Illustrator CS4, Soundbooth CS4, Adobe OnLocation CS4, and Encore CS4 with additional tools and services.
And many of us left Adobe happily despite all this.

When I am looking for an NLE, I am looking for a tool to get my work done. I am not bargain shopping. If I want to bargain shop, I could buy Final Cut Express and call it a day. If Adobe's Suite works for you.. terrific. It doesn't work for me, and I prefer to use other tools.

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God bless us all!
Gee, thanks.
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Old March 29th, 2010, 04:00 PM   #12
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Mixed frame rates and compressions

To add my 5c worth.

Isn't MC4 the only editing suite that allows mixed frame rates and compressions on the timeline? I've found this handy as I often render in other programs and sometimes have forgotton to set the correct compression - in MC4 this is not a problem it brings it in and handles it well. In Avid Xpress Pro I used to have to re-render. For glassy effects in HD the render time is up to 3 or 4 hours. A long time to wait to find out you've made a mistake on the compression setting. Mixed frames and compression on one timeline - are now a big time saver for me.

On the import issue - I've read this a few times and not having used Final Cut, I am confused about one thing. How is the Avid import time - longer than the wait for re-encoding using Streamclip or NeoScene? Am I missing something here?

Also I like the fact that Avid can be installed on a range of hardware options these days either Apple or Windows. When I purchased the XPress Studio suite the investment was huge and then I found out I had to buy one of four 'qualified workstations'. All cost a fortune. Right now for MC4, when I will need to replace my IBM workstation I am looking at a DIY option making sure to use a mother board with a qualified chipset and graphics card. This can be quite a saving over the high end Apple and Workstation machines. However I know it won't be for everyone as it invokes support and reliability issues.

On the interface issue - I haven't used Final Cut so can't comment. However I have tried Pinnacle Edition, Adobe Premier, Avid Xpress Pro and now Avid MC4. They all have their problems - they all have steep learning curves and they all seem to have their quirks. The review I quote below seems to point out the differences between the two very well.

In terms of Adobe Production Premium - the suite sounds great - I love Photoshop. However my experiences of Adobe Premier way back in 2001 have turned me off it for life - the render times were horrendous. From what I've read on the Internet we're down to a two horse race - Final Cut versus MC4. The summary most people seem to make in reviews and comments on this matter is Final Cut is cheaper - lacks some functionality at the top end (whatever that means and I guess its about setting up a networked editing environement, helpful trim mode, media management, script features, etc) while MC4 is more expensive as an initial investment yet feature rich (a lot of which I don't use).

There are tons of comparisons around - the following I like because it leaves the choice to the reader offering no one brand of software better than the other:

Media Composer and Final Cut Comparison — The Basics Splice Here

Several editors seem to have rated the review for this unemotional presentation of the differences. As with camera choice it's horses for courses.

Overall, one thing I have seen in the past 10 years is nothing sets these forums alight more than a shoot out between software preferences for NLE's.

With regards

Jeff
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Old March 29th, 2010, 04:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
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To add my 5c worth.

Isn't MC4 the only editing suite that allows mixed frame rates and compressions on the timeline?
Vegas has been doing this since day 1. Many, many, years now.

Quote:
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Overall, one thing I have seen in the past 10 years is nothing sets these forums alight more than a shoot out between software preferences for NLE's.
People seem to have emotional investment in these things. I could care less who's name is on the box. I have work to do, I buy the tool to do that work. Simple.
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