Canon 5D III and Atomos Ninja Flame

[Lawrence Keeney]

I am completely new to video. I have been shooting conventional photography for 16 years, and just decided to get involved with shooting video.

As part of my learning experience, I took on the job of photographing seven training sessions for a food processing company for free, just to gain experience in shooting video. Unfortunately, the videos turned out to be longer than the 1/2 hour recording time of the digital camera. This company wants me to shoot another 30 training videos for them.

After a lot of research, including watching a lot of videos on YouTube, I decided to purchase a Atomos Ninja Flame monitor/recorder to record the HDMI from my DSLR.

Unfortunately, after a week of testing and contacting both Canon and the Atomos company it turns out that there is no way to record beyond the 1/2 hour recording restriction of my 5D III. No where in my research did this restriction show up.

I am now considering purchasing a camcorder to get past this 1/2 hour recording restriction. I would like to limit my purchase to two to three thousand dollars for a camcorder. However, what people are telling me is that a camcorder in this price range will not produce anywhere near the quality image as I can get from my 5D III. Is this true, and if so how bad is the quality of the final video from this price range of camcorders?

Does anyone have a suggestion for a camcorder which will produce a reasonably good image for professional use which will record longer than 1 hour to my Atomos Ninja Flame through the HMDI input?

Lawrence

[Chris Hurd]

Note from Admin: this thread has been moved from the Atomos forum to the Canon DSLR forum because the topic is more about the camera than the recorder.

Originally Posted by Lawrence Keeney

Unfortunately, the videos turned out to be longer than the 1/2 hour recording time of the digital camera.

Hi Lawrence,

The 30 min. rec. limit in a Canon DSLR is only per single shot. You can certainly record for much longer, up to the capacity of the memory card. It's just that no single clip can be longer than 30 minutes.

Can you describe the nature of the video you're shooting in greater detail? Because... no single shot should last that long. I've done talking head interviews that were, like, five or six minutes long but I'll splice in some B-roll and cutaways to spice things up, because otherwise a single shot held for that amount of time would be excruciating. I mean, no one would want to watch it!

So my question is, if you need more than 30 min. of uninterrupted recording, what exactly are you shooting? Is it a manufacturing process or something? A lecture or a speech that goes on for more than 30 minutes?

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Keeney

what people are telling me is that a camcorder in this price range will not produce anywhere near the quality image as I can get from my 5D III.

I don't think that's entirely true, no. I own a couple of Canon DSLRs and I'm definitely a fan, but I think the only *real* advantage to shooting video with them is that it's easy to get a shallow depth of field, like a portrait photographer is used to, in a moving image. The smaller sensors in traditional video camcorders have always made that a challenge. It's easier with a DSLR for sure.

But, does your video project require shallow depth of field? Or would it actually benefit from deep focus. For most of the stuff I do on video, I need everything to be in focus.

With a traditional video camcorder, not only is that easier, but there's no 30 min. clip length limitation. Plus, with dual hot-swappable card slots, you can do relay recording from one card to the next, or dual recording which creates two identical originals, or proxy recording with full resolution on one card and a down-sized web-ready version on the other.

Not to mention an all-in-one wide-to-long zoom lens, unheard of in still photography, that's remotely controllable from the tripod pan handle or elsewhere. There's a Canon camcorder, the XF200, which has a telephoto reach of nearly 600mm in 35mm terms at f/2.8. Canon doesn't even make an EF 600mm f/2.8. They make an EF 600mm f/4, and it costs more than $11,000.

For more info see my Canon XF series camcorder buyer's guide at Buyer’s Guide: Canon XF series Camcorders at DV Info Net

Sony, JVC and Panasonic all have their equivalents to that type of camcorder, for $3,000 to $5,000 or so. Or less, even. The Canon XF100 costs less than $2,500 and it's definitely a professional camcorder.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

I think the only *real* advantage to shooting video with them is that it's easy to get a shallow depth of field, like a portrait photographer is used to, in a moving image.

Just wanted to add that for me, the other big advantage of shooting video with a DSLR is that it can sometimes be easier to get a wider shot than you can with a traditional camcorder (without having to resort to adding weight to the camcorder in the form of a heavy wide-angle adapter on the front of the lens).

Here's an interview we shot at NAB last year. It's three minutes long, and it has only three shots with no cutaways (true "run and gun;" such is the fast-paced nature of show coverage at NAB). We escape the static talking head shot by moving the camera. This was done with an inexpensive crop-sensor Canon EOS 70D, and an even less expensive image-stabilized ultra-wide angle zoom lens, the Canon EF-S 10-18mm (for less than $300, it's a gem).

http://www.dvinfo.net/video-report/nugen-audio.html

The EOS 70D + EF-S 10-18mm combination works very well for this type of application, and it's considerably less expensive than any pro camcorder with a wide-angle adapter.

[Chris Hurd]

Another thought -- about the JVC GY-LS300.

This is a very interesting professional 4K camcorder. It is a traditional video camcorder, basically the same model as the JVC GY-HM200 (which was recently updated to the GY-HM250), except the 12x zoom lens has been chopped off, and in its place is a large Super 35 size image sensor with a standard Micro Four Thirds interchangeable lens mount.

This gives you "the best of both worlds" with all the benefits of a traditional camcorder (relay recording, dual recording, etc.) plus the ability to use still photo lenses... even Canon EF and EF-S lenses with a lens adapter. You can even "zoom through" a prime lens with JVC's variable scan mapping function. It's really cool.

Plus, it streams live video to the web, if you should need that.

The price is right, too... only $2,500 at B&H:

JVC GY-LS300 4KCAM Handheld S35mm Camcorder (Body Only) at B&H Photo Video

or Adorama:

JVC GY-LS300 4KCAM Handheld S35mm Camcorder (Body Only) at Adorama

or Precision Camera:

JVC GY-LS300 4KCAM Handheld S35mm Camcorder (Body Only) at Precision Camera

[Peter Riding]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

If you need more than 30 min. of uninterrupted recording, what exactly are you shooting? Is it a manufacturing process or something? A lecture or a speech that goes on for more than 30 minutes?

The only occasions I have had to be able to go over the 30 minute limit without any interruptions is when there is a legal reason that the file is continuous. For that I've used a video cam rather than a dSLR. In practice two video cams in case one fails :- )

Not sure why for his shoots he cannot simply record a series of files during the appropriate moments. Would he not be on site operating his 5D Mark III anyway for no other reason than he'd need to recompose and re-focus many times. If the final product were it be over 30 minutes and unedited it may be unwatchable for the viewers anyway.

Pete

[Lawrence Keeney]

The job I got was to shoot training videos for a large company. These videos are for training new employees how to do specific jobs. This is for a food producing company, and the fellow who is doing the training explains in detail how to do the job. It would be very inconvenient to break this up into smaller clips as the fellow who does the training has been doing this for years to groups of new employees and does not have a break point in his presentation.

If I can get past the hour limitation, I have an opportunity to shoot 30 more of these videos.

I finally gave up using the 5D III and I purchased a Canon XA-30 Camcorder for this job. It should arrive this week. Now I have to learn how to use it.

[Chris Hurd]

Hi Lawrence,

The Canon XA30 will serve quite well for that purpose.

I would reccomend having the presenter wear a lavalier microphone, going to one of your XLR audio inputs. It'll sound a lot better than using the camcorder's on-board mic, which will give you a lot of room tone.

(Same advice would hold for the 5D3, so nothing new there).

Do you have a solid tripod with a proper video head for your XA30? A photo head won't suffice, unless you plan to lock down the camera without moving it around.

[Nigel Barker]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Keeney

The job I got was to shoot training videos for a large company. These videos are for training new employees how to do specific jobs. This is for a food producing company, and the fellow who is doing the training explains in detail how to do the job. It would be very inconvenient to break this up into smaller clips as the fellow who does the training has been doing this for years to groups of new employees and does not have a break point in his presentation.

Of course he has a break point. He doesn't speak uninterrupted for an hour without drawing breath. All that is required is that you hit the record button twice for a Stop then Start while the presenter pauses for breath or takes a sip of water or some other natural break in the presentation. It literally takes a second or two. If you wanted the process automated then the Magic Lantern add on firmware available for the 5DIII will do this for you.

[Rob Cantwell]

and now you have two cams so you can have two different angles while filming the presentation. I'd be nervous doing any mission critical work with just the one camera!

[John Wiley]

Bit late to the conversation, but just thought I'd ask the possibly-so-obvious-that-nobody-has-thought-of-it-yet question:

When recording with the Ninja Flame, did you start recording on the 5DmkIII, or on the recorder itself? If you start recording using the 5DmkIII's button, the HDMI triggering will tell the Flame to stop recording after 30 minutes. If you start recording directly on the Flame itself, there should be no such problems as the camera is still essentially in standby mode and does not even know that the recording is happening.