WD-58H and filters at the same time... at DVinfo.net

Ryan Martino · July 6th, 2003, 10:55 AM

hi all -

i did a search and found some threads that covered this topic in general, but i have a specific question:

has anyone experimented with exactly how many filters you can use in between the camera lens and the wide angle adapter before you get vignetting and/or wacky and unusable distortion?

in one thread i found, someone wanted to try this and the responses ranged from "don't ever do this" to "go for it, it should work within reason..."

so i'm wanting to know who has actually done this with success and how many filters they were using. i'm thinking about getting the WD-58H adapter and a little feedback would really help me decide. i have a GL-1, by the way.
thanks!...

martino

Rob Wilson · July 6th, 2003, 11:05 AM

Ryan,

Using a GL2 w my normally installed UV, then a polarizer and then the wd 58 resulted in some corner cutting. Since teh UV is only there for protection, since then I remove it and use one filter behind the wd 58 and that seems to work fine.

Bud Kuenzli · July 6th, 2003, 11:11 AM

what scenario do you have in mind that requires multiple filters? the example of a uv filter plus a polarizer simply diminishes image quality (potentially) with no gain. A UV filter added to a polarizer will do nothing. The polarizer will already be cutting more than the UV could ever hope to do, but the added glass of the UV could degrade the image further.
There aren't many times when multiple filters are needed....so I'm curious about the circumstances that make you ask about it.

Ryan Martino · July 6th, 2003, 11:40 AM

Rob and Bud - thanks very much for the replies.

Bud, here's what i want to do. i have a UV, a circular polarizer, and two different grades of a Black Pro Mist.
despite the fact that most people say they only use the UV for protection, i can actually see a real difference in the image when it's on, and i like the difference very much. it looks much cleaner and a bit warmer in the yellows...
i live in New Mexico where the light can be very harsh and contrasty. because of this, i bought a fairly hardcore UV filter. (Tiffen haze-2) maybe that's why it has such a pronounced effect to my eyes...

here's what i'm planning:
i'm going to shoot a feature length "no budget" film starting later this summer. i was thinking of using the UV and one of the Pro Mist filters the whole time, and for indoor shots i would use the wide angle adapter. for outdoor shots, i would take the adapter off and use the polarizer to cut light and relfections and saturate the colors a little.

i've tested the cam with the filters on individually and with all three filters at the same time. even with them all on, i see no vignetting and i actually see and like what all three filters do in combo with each other.

so should i brace myself for an onslaught of replies from pros saying "never manipulate your image in the camera. do it all in post..." ...?

after reading as much as i possibly could on the subject of getting a film look with a smallish DV cam, this was the setup i felt comfortable trying. i am new to DV and filmmaking, but i'm an experienced audio engineer and record producer. one thing i learned in that arena was that i'm not afraid to manipulate a signal before it hits the recording medium. as long as it's done WITH SUBTLETY and not with carelessness...

keep these thoughts coming, though. i love this board and the way everyone shares with each other without ever getting nasty.

-martino

Don Palomaki · July 6th, 2003, 11:53 AM

"never manipulate your image in the camera. do it all in post..."

Most will say do what works for you! The caution with multiple filters is that many time people will pile them on without knowing what the end effect will be when it is a one-time shoot. They may end up with a poor shot that requires more correction than a clean original would.

Also, some folks may use CC filters and then white balance through the filter - that could be counter productive in most (but not all) cases.

If you can have a reasonable number of retakes, try different combinations until you find what works for the shot at hand But be sure you have what you need before you wrap for the day..

Bud Kuenzli · July 6th, 2003, 01:05 PM

your UV is not a normal, plain-jane UV but must be a warming UV that adds a little yellow/red warming to the film. That's exactly the kind of thing people say to do in post. You can certainly get the same effect, and tweak it to your hearts content, in post, but it won't kill anyone if you choose to just use the filter. If you are not getting vignetting, then that's one worry put aside. Other than that the only danger is a small degradation of the image. The image may not be quite as sharp with so many filters, but the big worry would be when you had the camera pointed at or near the sun. All those filter layers provide more layers to bounce light around in and you may get much worse reflection artifacts. Just watch carefully when the sun is not in back of you.....

Marco Leavitt · July 6th, 2003, 02:39 PM

My experience with using any filters with the WD-58 on a GL1 is that you get a slight loss of sharpness. It isn't apparent in the viewfinder, but once you watch the footage its noticeable.

Ryan Martino · July 6th, 2003, 05:02 PM

hey everyone -

thanks for all your thoughts. very helpful.

Bud, according to the Tiffen website, my UV does not employ a warming color correction effect. simply cuts 100% of UV and "reduces more haze than the Haze-1". i guess the warmer color i percieve when i look through it is just the total lack of blueish UV light...? it's definately not a huge shift or anything, but the image does look a lot cleaner.
great advice about the sun being in front of me.

thanks again everyone. i'm still experimenting with what looks good. i'm a ways off from shooting, so i still have time to figure out a method that i'm comfortable with.

-martino

July 6th, 2003, 10:55 AM	#1
Ryan Martino Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 48	WD-58H and filters at the same time... hi all - i did a search and found some threads that covered this topic in general, but i have a specific question: has anyone experimented with exactly how many filters you can use in between the camera lens and the wide angle adapter before you get vignetting and/or wacky and unusable distortion? in one thread i found, someone wanted to try this and the responses ranged from "don't ever do this" to "go for it, it should work within reason..." so i'm wanting to know who has actually done this with success and how many filters they were using. i'm thinking about getting the WD-58H adapter and a little feedback would really help me decide. i have a GL-1, by the way. thanks!... martino

July 6th, 2003, 11:11 AM	#3
Bud Kuenzli Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 197	there are reasons why what scenario do you have in mind that requires multiple filters? the example of a uv filter plus a polarizer simply diminishes image quality (potentially) with no gain. A UV filter added to a polarizer will do nothing. The polarizer will already be cutting more than the UV could ever hope to do, but the added glass of the UV could degrade the image further. There aren't many times when multiple filters are needed....so I'm curious about the circumstances that make you ask about it. __________________ on the Internet, when you get where you're going you still don't know where you are

July 6th, 2003, 11:53 AM	#5
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	"never manipulate your image in the camera. do it all in post..." Most will say do what works for you! The caution with multiple filters is that many time people will pile them on without knowing what the end effect will be when it is a one-time shoot. They may end up with a poor shot that requires more correction than a clean original would. Also, some folks may use CC filters and then white balance through the filter - that could be counter productive in most (but not all) cases. If you can have a reasonable number of retakes, try different combinations until you find what works for the shot at hand But be sure you have what you need before you wrap for the day.. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

July 6th, 2003, 01:05 PM	#6
Bud Kuenzli Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 197	uv and polarizer your UV is not a normal, plain-jane UV but must be a warming UV that adds a little yellow/red warming to the film. That's exactly the kind of thing people say to do in post. You can certainly get the same effect, and tweak it to your hearts content, in post, but it won't kill anyone if you choose to just use the filter. If you are not getting vignetting, then that's one worry put aside. Other than that the only danger is a small degradation of the image. The image may not be quite as sharp with so many filters, but the big worry would be when you had the camera pointed at or near the sun. All those filter layers provide more layers to bounce light around in and you may get much worse reflection artifacts. Just watch carefully when the sun is not in back of you..... __________________ on the Internet, when you get where you're going you still don't know where you are

July 6th, 2003, 11:05 AM	#2
Rob Wilson Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 473	Ryan, Using a GL2 w my normally installed UV, then a polarizer and then the wd 58 resulted in some corner cutting. Since teh UV is only there for protection, since then I remove it and use one filter behind the wd 58 and that seems to work fine.

July 6th, 2003, 11:40 AM	#4
Ryan Martino Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 48	Rob and Bud - thanks very much for the replies. Bud, here's what i want to do. i have a UV, a circular polarizer, and two different grades of a Black Pro Mist. despite the fact that most people say they only use the UV for protection, i can actually see a real difference in the image when it's on, and i like the difference very much. it looks much cleaner and a bit warmer in the yellows... i live in New Mexico where the light can be very harsh and contrasty. because of this, i bought a fairly hardcore UV filter. (Tiffen haze-2) maybe that's why it has such a pronounced effect to my eyes... here's what i'm planning: i'm going to shoot a feature length "no budget" film starting later this summer. i was thinking of using the UV and one of the Pro Mist filters the whole time, and for indoor shots i would use the wide angle adapter. for outdoor shots, i would take the adapter off and use the polarizer to cut light and relfections and saturate the colors a little. i've tested the cam with the filters on individually and with all three filters at the same time. even with them all on, i see no vignetting and i actually see and like what all three filters do in combo with each other. so should i brace myself for an onslaught of replies from pros saying "never manipulate your image in the camera. do it all in post..." ...? after reading as much as i possibly could on the subject of getting a film look with a smallish DV cam, this was the setup i felt comfortable trying. i am new to DV and filmmaking, but i'm an experienced audio engineer and record producer. one thing i learned in that arena was that i'm not afraid to manipulate a signal before it hits the recording medium. as long as it's done WITH SUBTLETY and not with carelessness... keep these thoughts coming, though. i love this board and the way everyone shares with each other without ever getting nasty. -martino

July 6th, 2003, 02:39 PM	#7
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	My experience with using any filters with the WD-58 on a GL1 is that you get a slight loss of sharpness. It isn't apparent in the viewfinder, but once you watch the footage its noticeable.

July 6th, 2003, 05:02 PM	#8
Ryan Martino Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 48	hey everyone - thanks for all your thoughts. very helpful. Bud, according to the Tiffen website, my UV does not employ a warming color correction effect. simply cuts 100% of UV and "reduces more haze than the Haze-1". i guess the warmer color i percieve when i look through it is just the total lack of blueish UV light...? it's definately not a huge shift or anything, but the image does look a lot cleaner. great advice about the sun being in front of me. thanks again everyone. i'm still experimenting with what looks good. i'm a ways off from shooting, so i still have time to figure out a method that i'm comfortable with. -martino