GL2 / XM2 Frame mode

Steve McDonald · September 19th, 2002, 12:53 AM

The new Panasonic NTSC AG-DVX100 has true progressive scanning at 24p and
30p, as well as standard interlaced.
It may fill the bill for many people who are looking for a progressive capability with a street price of about $3,500. However, it has a non-removable lens with only a 10X
zoom. That's enough lens power for some, but not even close for me.

However, Century Precision Optics makes a 75mm telextender that can be adapted to its 72mm barrel, that brings it up to 16X, for a list cost of $895.

They also make a 2X telextender, price unknown, for the front-end of detachable pro lenses. I don't know if its mount would fit on a threaded lens barrel, such as the DVX100 has. Century claims you can use the 1.6X and the 2X together, for what would total 32X, if feasible on this model. This combination would likely vignette in the lower half of the zoom range.

I know of no other highgrade telextenders of that large barrel size, that wouldn't be even more expensive. If someone knows of a good one that's cheaper, I'd like to hear about it. I expect the Century lenses would be high quality and I could also adapt them for use on the 77mm lens of my Beta camcorder and on my Canon L-1. The 1.6X model is actually a featured item for the Canon XL1 standard lens (for its front end, different from the 1.6X telextender by Canon for the back end---with both, the XL1 would have
almost 41X).

Michael Pappas · September 25th, 2002, 06:10 PM

I am going to keep this short since I am in the middle of work. But I acquired the GL2 yesterday. I mainly got it for the Frame Mode. I have had 3 XL1's (which Chris Hurd owns now) 2 GL1's, VX1000, two VX2000's and a PD150. And that's not counting the High end Cameras. As for the frame mode I know this mode better then my right foot. So after looking at tests from two GL2 cams I have noticed a more pronounced aliasing in the image in Frame Move Mode. I pulled up footage from GL1's and XL1's that don't show it like the GL2 does. This worries me, since the GL2 uses new ccd's and maybe Canon screwed up the Frame mode algorithm.

Now don't discount my ability to see issues. I found the line problem on the XL1 and had to prove it to canons best when they couldn't even see it. Mr.Hurd can vouch for my thorough analyzing eyes.

I will say that the GL2 is a big step above the GL1 in cleanness and sharpness. But I felt I should make those aware about what I'm seeing with the 'Frame Movie Mode." I plan to do more research in the next few days.

Michael Pappas
Arrival Entertainment
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

Chris Hurd · September 25th, 2002, 06:27 PM

Michael wrote extensively about Frame Movie mode as early as 1997 when the XL1 was first made public.

Michael Pappas · September 25th, 2002, 08:11 PM

While I was on the phone with Chris earlier he reminded me of who makes the CCD chip set in the GL2. Panasonic.........hhhmmmm

The frame mode the way it's designed should improve with better ccd's. Aliasing should decrease because of the extra resolution, not increase. The 410.000 pixel ccd plus pixel shift in two directions makes this ccd in theory like a 680,000 pixel count ccd on the GL2. That's a lot of pixel data to extract a full frame for Frame Movie Mode.

Insert Conspiracy here:

Could Panasonic deliberately hinder the frame mode feature that is designed in their chip set they OEM to Canon so it does not conflict with their 30p mode that is also going to be on their new 24p camera. The 30fps mode on the GL2 should look just as good to the untrained eye as the 30p mode on the upcoming Panasonic camera in the final product. They would know this too!

Or maybe they took that feature off their OEM ccd chip set and Canon was left to come up with the feature after the chip set. That would not be a good thing. Remember it was Panasonic that had the frame mode in 1996, years before the XL1 was even desinged. This was a Panasonic design spec in some of there ccd chip sets.

Then it could be an adjustment flaw Canon can fix.

More to come.....All opinions are welcome, lets all talk.

Michael Pappas
Arrival Entertainment
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

Ken Tanaka · September 25th, 2002, 10:08 PM

Hello Michael,
I don't really understand what you are asking. Are you wondering if others also see this excess aliasing in frame mode? It sounds more like you have already validated your eyes and declared this to be so (at least with your unit). Personally, I do not see this on my GL2 (as compared to my current XL1s and former XL1's and former GL1's footage) unless I crank the GL2's sharpness way up. Since this is a new feature of the GL2 (and thus a new variable with this model) perhaps your unit needs adjustment.

I seriously doubt that Panasonic would purposely flub the ccd blocks they sell to Canon for two reasons. First, it would cost a truck load of production and distribution overhead to segregate ccd's. Second, and perhaps most significantly, I'd bet tha Panasonic makes an order of magnitude more profit from their oem ccd business than they do from their camera line. I'd also bet that the g.m. of their oem imaging is paid *much* more in salary and in annual bonus than his counterpart in the prosumer camera pushing department. Jeopardizing profitable oem relationships to benefit transient prosumer product initiatives just ain't gonna happen.

Michael Pappas · September 26th, 2002, 12:24 AM

Hello Ken! That was just a conspiracy theory and mainly food for thought (To many Alan J. Pakula and Oliver stone films probably) But anything is possible. As for the GL2. It's a good camera. It has a very sharp image and is a big step for Canon. If I want 60i the VX2000/PD150 are the first choice. But since I prefer 30p (frame mode feel) the GL2 is my first choice. The XL1S is great, but the GL2 appears to be sharper. It's not to hard to believe since the GL2 has 410.000 pixel vs 270.000 and has a new pixel shift system.

Maybe this is a problem because the GL2 is more sharper then the GL1 and XL1. So the softness or lack of pixel data masked out the aliasing on the XL1/GL1. Just theories.

As for Panasonic, they are my second favorite broadcast electronics company. Sony is my first. My first color video cam was a Panasonic in 1984 when I was a kid. Then when I was sixteen (1985 ) I got my first pro three saticon tube broadcast camera the M2 from Sony (a 20lb camera ). I have been stuck with Sony when it comes to cameras since, except for Canon and its FM . I had been trying to get companies since the late eighties to give adjustable frame rates, so when Canon had done it that was great. But now Panasonic has come a long way and if I wanted to spend $3000+ for a mini dv the new Panasonic 24p looks sweet! So I didn't want to sound negative towards Panasonic.

As to one of your questions. Was I asking for people to check there cameras. Yes. But.... I have been here before also. Chris Hurd can vouch for this. When the XL1 vertical line issue happen. No one could see it. I went from hell and back to get people to see it. Same thing with the Xl1s banding issue. Canon east and west coast couldn't even see the vertical lines on their own cameras back in January 1998. So I met with them in their offices in the West coast headquarters and showed them in person. I got thrashed on the net then because no one could see it. Then one by one some saw it. When Canon put out the official on it, then it was set in stone. I was clearded.

Now here I ask about the aliasing during frame mode because I see something that doesn't look right with the GL2's Frame Mode. With the GL1 or XL1 when you switch between Frame Mode and the normal 60i there is just a slight change in a stationary tripod shot. But with the GL2 also on a wide shot of curvy things etc, there is far more alias/jaggies coming into the image from 60i to Frame Mode switch. If a camera is on a stationary tripod shot and you switch between 60i to 30p you shouldn't see any big difference, especially aliasing increasing. Like I said this is food for thought.

Michael Pappas

Ken Tanaka · September 26th, 2002, 12:41 AM

Well indeed it's a phenomenon to keep our eyes out for, if only to add to the body of field knowledge on the GL2. I don't yet have a large body of check-able footage from the GL2 but what I've seen so far looks very good. I usually watch eyebrow edges and stray hair (on head shots) on slow creeps for such funkiness. What do you normally use as your landmarks, Michael?

Barry Goyette · September 26th, 2002, 08:41 AM

Micheal

We had a thread going on this awhile back, where someone with a pal xm2 was seeing this. I did a lot of checking with my camera, and found almost no aliasing except in high contrast lines at near horizontal angles. My experience is that there is substantially LESS aliasing with the gl2 than either my xl1s or gl1.

One thing I have noticed though is that the default sharpness setting is set too high on the gl2. Have you tried lowering it a couple of notches? Perhaps your camera's sharpness is set even higher, and this is causing the aliasing.

Barry

Aaron Koolen · October 3rd, 2002, 05:46 PM

Hi all. Another question from me :)
Anyone know how deinterlacing software holds up against frame mode? Are Canon's algorithms better than the software ones out there or what? Reason I ask is that I was offered a good deal on a VX2000 and am tempted simply because of low light ability as I want to shoot dramitic movies a lot and envisage night/dim room scenes where the XM2 just might not handle it at all. The issue was with the fact that the vx2000 doesn't have frame mode of course, and so I'd have to deinterlace to get that film style strobing (@ 25fps here in PAL land). The XM2 seems to have a few more setup options than the vx2000 but maybe the vx wins out when they're the same price (almost)

Cheers
Aaron

Oh, the XM2's are finally here in the country, so believe it or not I'll be buying something soon ;)

Keith Luken · October 3rd, 2002, 07:21 PM

I have been playing a lttle, and have tried TMPEG and I think it is DV movie maker or somthing, and both do OK at De-interlacing. I have tried them briefly with regular interlaced footage and a little FRAME footage. They seem to work better with the frame footage obviously since it was in progressive to begin with. TMPEG offers better controls I feel for handling how to de-interlace. Each option has pros and cons, all mostly affect how well motion will be handled and then percieved. If you want true deinterlaced footage then I would start with FRAME mode footage and go from there, the software options all have some cons that if you are willing to live with are fine, but none of them are perfect. From my little experiements if you will be doing much panning then software deinterlacing may create some jerkiness under some situations. I know many on this forum LOVE Frame mode and shoot entirely in it, but I feel native mode is a bit sharper, so if you don;t mind the slight loss of sharpness then FRAME mode os fine, also avoid fast pans as FRAME mode itself will seems jerky sometimes. But as usual, take this all with a grain as I am a relative newbie to DV. If Barry or Chris chime in on this one, they are the experts and can correct me where I am wrong.

Frank Granovski · October 5th, 2002, 01:07 AM

I've read from a number of people, who have compared both methods, is that shooting in frame mode/progressive gives the better result. But not by much.

Keith Luken · October 5th, 2002, 08:39 AM

Frank,

I would say that it gives the better result if that is the result you are looking for. If you want the "live" broadcast high quality sharpness then FRAMe is not the answer. If you want a more film like look then yes FRAME does it very well. There are some thinsg I want that sharp live look for and FRAME does not provide that, FRAME (in my opinion) actually makes the image not as sharp, thus you loose a little detail.

Jim Yang · November 8th, 2002, 05:58 PM

Is there anyone out there with a GL2 that could record something in Frame mode and then the same thing or something similar in Normal mode. I'd like to compare the difference between these two modes.

Bill Hardy · November 12th, 2002, 11:18 AM

I'll try to get some frames on my webpage for you tonite after work.

http://homepage.mac.com/bhardy3/PhotoAlbum8.html

Michael Pappas · November 12th, 2002, 11:57 AM

I recommend you don't use frame mode and shoot 60i. Then de-interlace the footage in AE, FCP or use magic bullet. De-interlacing is faster on rendering and has good results. A few weeks ago I took Canons GL2 and filmed a 1956 res testing chart and macbeth color chart. Switched between frame mode and regular 60i. I then took the same 60i footage and de-interlaced it and compared it to the frame mode of the same chart. The 60i de-interlaced material was much better and retained more res. The Frame mode hits you very hard in resolution. There was less aliasing with the 60i de-interlaced material too!

Michael Pappas

September 19th, 2002, 12:53 AM	#31
Steve McDonald Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 366	The new Panasonic NTSC AG-DVX100 has true progressive scanning at 24p and 30p, as well as standard interlaced. It may fill the bill for many people who are looking for a progressive capability with a street price of about $3,500. However, it has a non-removable lens with only a 10X zoom. That's enough lens power for some, but not even close for me. However, Century Precision Optics makes a 75mm telextender that can be adapted to its 72mm barrel, that brings it up to 16X, for a list cost of $895. They also make a 2X telextender, price unknown, for the front-end of detachable pro lenses. I don't know if its mount would fit on a threaded lens barrel, such as the DVX100 has. Century claims you can use the 1.6X and the 2X together, for what would total 32X, if feasible on this model. This combination would likely vignette in the lower half of the zoom range. I know of no other highgrade telextenders of that large barrel size, that wouldn't be even more expensive. If someone knows of a good one that's cheaper, I'd like to hear about it. I expect the Century lenses would be high quality and I could also adapt them for use on the 77mm lens of my Beta camcorder and on my Canon L-1. The 1.6X model is actually a featured item for the Canon XL1 standard lens (for its front end, different from the 1.6X telextender by Canon for the back end---with both, the XL1 would have almost 41X). __________________ Steve McDonald

September 25th, 2002, 06:10 PM	#32
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Got Canon GL2- Frame mode issue maybe! I am going to keep this short since I am in the middle of work. But I acquired the GL2 yesterday. I mainly got it for the Frame Mode. I have had 3 XL1's (which Chris Hurd owns now) 2 GL1's, VX1000, two VX2000's and a PD150. And that's not counting the High end Cameras. As for the frame mode I know this mode better then my right foot. So after looking at tests from two GL2 cams I have noticed a more pronounced aliasing in the image in Frame Move Mode. I pulled up footage from GL1's and XL1's that don't show it like the GL2 does. This worries me, since the GL2 uses new ccd's and maybe Canon screwed up the Frame mode algorithm. Now don't discount my ability to see issues. I found the line problem on the XL1 and had to prove it to canons best when they couldn't even see it. Mr.Hurd can vouch for my thorough analyzing eyes. I will say that the GL2 is a big step above the GL1 in cleanness and sharpness. But I felt I should make those aware about what I'm seeing with the 'Frame Movie Mode." I plan to do more research in the next few days. Michael Pappas Arrival Entertainment Arrfilms@hotmail.com

September 25th, 2002, 06:27 PM	#33
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Michael wrote extensively about Frame Movie mode as early as 1997 when the XL1 was first made public. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 25th, 2002, 10:08 PM	#35
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Hello Michael, I don't really understand what you are asking. Are you wondering if others also see this excess aliasing in frame mode? It sounds more like you have already validated your eyes and declared this to be so (at least with your unit). Personally, I do not see this on my GL2 (as compared to my current XL1s and former XL1's and former GL1's footage) unless I crank the GL2's sharpness way up. Since this is a new feature of the GL2 (and thus a new variable with this model) perhaps your unit needs adjustment. I seriously doubt that Panasonic would purposely flub the ccd blocks they sell to Canon for two reasons. First, it would cost a truck load of production and distribution overhead to segregate ccd's. Second, and perhaps most significantly, I'd bet tha Panasonic makes an order of magnitude more profit from their oem ccd business than they do from their camera line. I'd also bet that the g.m. of their oem imaging is paid much more in salary and in annual bonus than his counterpart in the prosumer camera pushing department. Jeopardizing profitable oem relationships to benefit transient prosumer product initiatives just ain't gonna happen. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

September 26th, 2002, 12:41 AM	#37
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Well indeed it's a phenomenon to keep our eyes out for, if only to add to the body of field knowledge on the GL2. I don't yet have a large body of check-able footage from the GL2 but what I've seen so far looks very good. I usually watch eyebrow edges and stray hair (on head shots) on slow creeps for such funkiness. What do you normally use as your landmarks, Michael? __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

September 25th, 2002, 08:11 PM	#34
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	While I was on the phone with Chris earlier he reminded me of who makes the CCD chip set in the GL2. Panasonic.........hhhmmmm The frame mode the way it's designed should improve with better ccd's. Aliasing should decrease because of the extra resolution, not increase. The 410.000 pixel ccd plus pixel shift in two directions makes this ccd in theory like a 680,000 pixel count ccd on the GL2. That's a lot of pixel data to extract a full frame for Frame Movie Mode. Insert Conspiracy here: Could Panasonic deliberately hinder the frame mode feature that is designed in their chip set they OEM to Canon so it does not conflict with their 30p mode that is also going to be on their new 24p camera. The 30fps mode on the GL2 should look just as good to the untrained eye as the 30p mode on the upcoming Panasonic camera in the final product. They would know this too! Or maybe they took that feature off their OEM ccd chip set and Canon was left to come up with the feature after the chip set. That would not be a good thing. Remember it was Panasonic that had the frame mode in 1996, years before the XL1 was even desinged. This was a Panasonic design spec in some of there ccd chip sets. Then it could be an adjustment flaw Canon can fix. More to come.....All opinions are welcome, lets all talk. Michael Pappas Arrival Entertainment Arrfilms@hotmail.com

September 26th, 2002, 12:24 AM	#36
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Hello Ken! That was just a conspiracy theory and mainly food for thought (To many Alan J. Pakula and Oliver stone films probably) But anything is possible. As for the GL2. It's a good camera. It has a very sharp image and is a big step for Canon. If I want 60i the VX2000/PD150 are the first choice. But since I prefer 30p (frame mode feel) the GL2 is my first choice. The XL1S is great, but the GL2 appears to be sharper. It's not to hard to believe since the GL2 has 410.000 pixel vs 270.000 and has a new pixel shift system. Maybe this is a problem because the GL2 is more sharper then the GL1 and XL1. So the softness or lack of pixel data masked out the aliasing on the XL1/GL1. Just theories. As for Panasonic, they are my second favorite broadcast electronics company. Sony is my first. My first color video cam was a Panasonic in 1984 when I was a kid. Then when I was sixteen (1985 ) I got my first pro three saticon tube broadcast camera the M2 from Sony (a 20lb camera ). I have been stuck with Sony when it comes to cameras since, except for Canon and its FM . I had been trying to get companies since the late eighties to give adjustable frame rates, so when Canon had done it that was great. But now Panasonic has come a long way and if I wanted to spend $3000+ for a mini dv the new Panasonic 24p looks sweet! So I didn't want to sound negative towards Panasonic. As to one of your questions. Was I asking for people to check there cameras. Yes. But.... I have been here before also. Chris Hurd can vouch for this. When the XL1 vertical line issue happen. No one could see it. I went from hell and back to get people to see it. Same thing with the Xl1s banding issue. Canon east and west coast couldn't even see the vertical lines on their own cameras back in January 1998. So I met with them in their offices in the West coast headquarters and showed them in person. I got thrashed on the net then because no one could see it. Then one by one some saw it. When Canon put out the official on it, then it was set in stone. I was clearded. Now here I ask about the aliasing during frame mode because I see something that doesn't look right with the GL2's Frame Mode. With the GL1 or XL1 when you switch between Frame Mode and the normal 60i there is just a slight change in a stationary tripod shot. But with the GL2 also on a wide shot of curvy things etc, there is far more alias/jaggies coming into the image from 60i to Frame Mode switch. If a camera is on a stationary tripod shot and you switch between 60i to 30p you shouldn't see any big difference, especially aliasing increasing. Like I said this is food for thought. Michael Pappas

September 26th, 2002, 08:41 AM	#38
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	Micheal We had a thread going on this awhile back, where someone with a pal xm2 was seeing this. I did a lot of checking with my camera, and found almost no aliasing except in high contrast lines at near horizontal angles. My experience is that there is substantially LESS aliasing with the gl2 than either my xl1s or gl1. One thing I have noticed though is that the default sharpness setting is set too high on the gl2. Have you tried lowering it a couple of notches? Perhaps your camera's sharpness is set even higher, and this is causing the aliasing. Barry

October 3rd, 2002, 05:46 PM	#39
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Anyone know about Frame Mode vs Deinterlacing? Hi all. Another question from me :) Anyone know how deinterlacing software holds up against frame mode? Are Canon's algorithms better than the software ones out there or what? Reason I ask is that I was offered a good deal on a VX2000 and am tempted simply because of low light ability as I want to shoot dramitic movies a lot and envisage night/dim room scenes where the XM2 just might not handle it at all. The issue was with the fact that the vx2000 doesn't have frame mode of course, and so I'd have to deinterlace to get that film style strobing (@ 25fps here in PAL land). The XM2 seems to have a few more setup options than the vx2000 but maybe the vx wins out when they're the same price (almost) Cheers Aaron Oh, the XM2's are finally here in the country, so believe it or not I'll be buying something soon ;)

October 3rd, 2002, 07:21 PM	#40
Keith Luken Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 200	I have been playing a lttle, and have tried TMPEG and I think it is DV movie maker or somthing, and both do OK at De-interlacing. I have tried them briefly with regular interlaced footage and a little FRAME footage. They seem to work better with the frame footage obviously since it was in progressive to begin with. TMPEG offers better controls I feel for handling how to de-interlace. Each option has pros and cons, all mostly affect how well motion will be handled and then percieved. If you want true deinterlaced footage then I would start with FRAME mode footage and go from there, the software options all have some cons that if you are willing to live with are fine, but none of them are perfect. From my little experiements if you will be doing much panning then software deinterlacing may create some jerkiness under some situations. I know many on this forum LOVE Frame mode and shoot entirely in it, but I feel native mode is a bit sharper, so if you don;t mind the slight loss of sharpness then FRAME mode os fine, also avoid fast pans as FRAME mode itself will seems jerky sometimes. But as usual, take this all with a grain as I am a relative newbie to DV. If Barry or Chris chime in on this one, they are the experts and can correct me where I am wrong.

October 5th, 2002, 01:07 AM	#41
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	I've read from a number of people, who have compared both methods, is that shooting in frame mode/progressive gives the better result. But not by much.

October 5th, 2002, 08:39 AM	#42
Keith Luken Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 200	Frank, I would say that it gives the better result if that is the result you are looking for. If you want the "live" broadcast high quality sharpness then FRAMe is not the answer. If you want a more film like look then yes FRAME does it very well. There are some thinsg I want that sharp live look for and FRAME does not provide that, FRAME (in my opinion) actually makes the image not as sharp, thus you loose a little detail.

November 8th, 2002, 05:58 PM	#43
Jim Yang Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cape Girardeau, MO Posts: 38	GL2 Frame mode/Normal mode comparison Is there anyone out there with a GL2 that could record something in Frame mode and then the same thing or something similar in Normal mode. I'd like to compare the difference between these two modes.

November 12th, 2002, 11:18 AM	#44
Bill Hardy Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 205	I'll try to get some frames on my webpage for you tonite after work. http://homepage.mac.com/bhardy3/PhotoAlbum8.html

November 12th, 2002, 11:57 AM	#45
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	I recommend you don't use frame mode and shoot 60i. Then de-interlace the footage in AE, FCP or use magic bullet. De-interlacing is faster on rendering and has good results. A few weeks ago I took Canons GL2 and filmed a 1956 res testing chart and macbeth color chart. Switched between frame mode and regular 60i. I then took the same 60i footage and de-interlaced it and compared it to the frame mode of the same chart. The 60i de-interlaced material was much better and retained more res. The Frame mode hits you very hard in resolution. There was less aliasing with the 60i de-interlaced material too! Michael Pappas