GL2 / XM2 Frame mode

Bill Hardy · November 18th, 2002, 05:44 PM

Here are some pics in frame and normal mode.

http://homepage.mac.com/bhardy3/PhotoAlbum32.html

Just to see, I took some digital photos of the subject with my 2.1 MP Sony camera. They came out kinda fuzzy and lower than normal quality without the flash in the same low light conditions. This says a lot to me about the GL2.

Jim Yang · November 19th, 2002, 08:47 AM

Thanks for the attempt but I'm looking for a comparison of movies in frame and normal mode, not still shots.

<<<-- Originally posted by buddy1065 : Here are some pics in frame and normal mode.

http://homepage.mac.com/bhardy3/PhotoAlbum32.html

Just to see, I took some digital photos of the subject with my 2.1 MP Sony camera. They came out kinda fuzzy and lower than normal quality without the flash in the same low light conditions. This says a lot to me about the GL2. -->>>

David Crompton · November 29th, 2002, 03:13 AM

I just purchased a CanonZR40 to temporarily take some of playback brunt off my GL2. I am immediately hearing extreme audio dropout when I play back tapes shot on the GL2 in the ZR40. I usually shoot in Frame mode, so I switched to normal and tested with that-the short test I did seemed to be fine. Is there an obvious reason for this I am not aware of?

Frank Granovski · November 29th, 2002, 04:26 AM

Hi David. The only thing I can think of is that the ZR doesn't have frame mode and perhaps cannot properly play bayback GL2 progressive footage? Or perhaps the ZR's heads need to be cleaned?

Don Palomaki · November 29th, 2002, 09:10 AM

Might be old vs newer tapes. Frame mode relates to how the CCD was read and the DSP applied to the signal off the CCD, not to recording on tape. So frame mode should not effect the ZR-40 playback. The problem you describe is common with LP speed recordings played on another machine. Alternatively it could relate to tape read errors caused by slightly dirty heads, slight differences in tape path allignment between the two machines, or light imperfections in the tape combined the the other two.

David Crompton · November 29th, 2002, 11:45 AM

Hmm. If it's Dirty heads that's easily remedied. All my tapes are SP so that shouldn't be it and the tapes are all Sony Premium and relatively new. If it is a slight alignment difference this is going to always plague me unless I have one of them aligned, no?

Chris Hurd · November 29th, 2002, 12:16 PM

I would try a head-cleaning tape one time, for about 5 or 6 seconds (no more). See if that clears it up.

David Crompton · December 4th, 2002, 01:24 AM

Cleaned the heads and the problem persists-It's strange it's only with material shot in Frame Mode...

Don Palomaki · December 4th, 2002, 06:44 AM

If you can, try a third machine and see if the issue presists.

Bart Saerens · January 10th, 2003, 03:28 AM

I'm going to shoot a wedding with my XM2 and I've read that some people use frame mode for this.

I've also read that you have to be carefull with fast moving objects while shooting frame mode ... so, the ceremony shouldn't be a problem, but what about recording dancing people at night?

And is it "safe" to use frame mode in low light conditions? (church, evening shots, ...)

Something else, is it a good idea to white balance everytime you take a new position during the church ceremony? Or is it better to white balance in the beginning of the ceremony and leave it, even after changing position?

Yep, I'm a newbie ;-)

Robert Poulton · January 10th, 2003, 03:52 AM

do a search for "Frame Movie mode" or something to that effect. There are lots of post about that subject.

Rob

Frank Granovski · January 10th, 2003, 04:48 AM

I would just shoot in regular mode, but perhaps for some special scenes, use frame mode. This will give it that look. You know. Perhaps experiment with this, and other things before you shoot that wedding. I find a low shutter of 1/30th or 1/15th, for indoor dance scenes, will add a nice blurring effect---but use a tripod for this. Another thing you could do is use a soft filter for special close-ups of the bride and groom. There's lots of things you can do. However, it's better to keep things simple, use a tripod, and vary your shooting angles: high pointing down, low pointing up, etc. Shoot small segments, unless you're going to edit in NLE.

One more tip. Try not to fall into the zooming, panning, and tilting traps. Use these sparingly---or for effect for certain type of scenes---like dance scenes.

Good luck with your shoot!

Robert Knecht Schmidt · January 10th, 2003, 04:53 AM

If your intended delivery medium is web video, use frame mode. You'll need to deinterlace anyway if you want to put it on the web, so you might as well do the deinterlacing in real time in-hardware as you shoot.

Yes, it's safe to use frame mode to shoot in any sort of condition that it would be safe to shoot using interlaced mode. All frame mode does is drop the lines from one field and regenerate them back from the other field using interpolation.

Don Palomaki · January 10th, 2003, 05:36 AM

Frame mode does not drop one field and then interpolate from the reaminng field. It uses a sort of vertical pixel shift system sampling from both fields taken at the same instant. The net effect is half way between true progressive and single field interpolation, and it provides better resolution than interpolation of a single field.

In any case, try it and the alternatives before using it on a money shoot to be sure the effect is acceptable to you. As with slow shutter, frame mode can produce good and bad effects on motion, depending on what you want to achieve.

Adrian Douglas · January 10th, 2003, 08:39 AM

One problem with frame mode though is that the slow shutter speeds, the digital effects ones below 1/50th don't work. They only work in normal mode.

November 29th, 2002, 03:13 AM	#63
David Crompton New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver Posts: 17	Frame Mode Effecting Sound? I just purchased a CanonZR40 to temporarily take some of playback brunt off my GL2. I am immediately hearing extreme audio dropout when I play back tapes shot on the GL2 in the ZR40. I usually shoot in Frame mode, so I switched to normal and tested with that-the short test I did seemed to be fine. Is there an obvious reason for this I am not aware of?

November 29th, 2002, 12:16 PM	#67
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	I would try a head-cleaning tape one time, for about 5 or 6 seconds (no more). See if that clears it up. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 10th, 2003, 03:28 AM	#70
Bart Saerens New Boot Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 24	Frame mode I'm going to shoot a wedding with my XM2 and I've read that some people use frame mode for this. I've also read that you have to be carefull with fast moving objects while shooting frame mode ... so, the ceremony shouldn't be a problem, but what about recording dancing people at night? And is it "safe" to use frame mode in low light conditions? (church, evening shots, ...) Something else, is it a good idea to white balance everytime you take a new position during the church ceremony? Or is it better to white balance in the beginning of the ceremony and leave it, even after changing position? Yep, I'm a newbie ;-)

January 10th, 2003, 04:53 AM	#73
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	If your intended delivery medium is web video, use frame mode. You'll need to deinterlace anyway if you want to put it on the web, so you might as well do the deinterlacing in real time in-hardware as you shoot. Yes, it's safe to use frame mode to shoot in any sort of condition that it would be safe to shoot using interlaced mode. All frame mode does is drop the lines from one field and regenerate them back from the other field using interpolation. __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 10th, 2003, 08:39 AM	#75
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	One problem with frame mode though is that the slow shutter speeds, the digital effects ones below 1/50th don't work. They only work in normal mode. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

November 18th, 2002, 05:44 PM	#61
Bill Hardy Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 205	Here are some pics in frame and normal mode. http://homepage.mac.com/bhardy3/PhotoAlbum32.html Just to see, I took some digital photos of the subject with my 2.1 MP Sony camera. They came out kinda fuzzy and lower than normal quality without the flash in the same low light conditions. This says a lot to me about the GL2.

November 19th, 2002, 08:47 AM	#62
Jim Yang Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cape Girardeau, MO Posts: 38	Thanks for the attempt but I'm looking for a comparison of movies in frame and normal mode, not still shots. <<<-- Originally posted by buddy1065 : Here are some pics in frame and normal mode. http://homepage.mac.com/bhardy3/PhotoAlbum32.html Just to see, I took some digital photos of the subject with my 2.1 MP Sony camera. They came out kinda fuzzy and lower than normal quality without the flash in the same low light conditions. This says a lot to me about the GL2. -->>>

November 29th, 2002, 04:26 AM	#64
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Hi David. The only thing I can think of is that the ZR doesn't have frame mode and perhaps cannot properly play bayback GL2 progressive footage? Or perhaps the ZR's heads need to be cleaned?

November 29th, 2002, 09:10 AM	#65
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Might be old vs newer tapes. Frame mode relates to how the CCD was read and the DSP applied to the signal off the CCD, not to recording on tape. So frame mode should not effect the ZR-40 playback. The problem you describe is common with LP speed recordings played on another machine. Alternatively it could relate to tape read errors caused by slightly dirty heads, slight differences in tape path allignment between the two machines, or light imperfections in the tape combined the the other two.

November 29th, 2002, 11:45 AM	#66
David Crompton New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver Posts: 17	Hmm. If it's Dirty heads that's easily remedied. All my tapes are SP so that shouldn't be it and the tapes are all Sony Premium and relatively new. If it is a slight alignment difference this is going to always plague me unless I have one of them aligned, no?

December 4th, 2002, 01:24 AM	#68
David Crompton New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver Posts: 17	Cleaned the heads and the problem persists-It's strange it's only with material shot in Frame Mode...

December 4th, 2002, 06:44 AM	#69
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	If you can, try a third machine and see if the issue presists.

January 10th, 2003, 03:52 AM	#71
Robert Poulton Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 245	do a search for "Frame Movie mode" or something to that effect. There are lots of post about that subject. Rob

January 10th, 2003, 04:48 AM	#72
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	I would just shoot in regular mode, but perhaps for some special scenes, use frame mode. This will give it that look. You know. Perhaps experiment with this, and other things before you shoot that wedding. I find a low shutter of 1/30th or 1/15th, for indoor dance scenes, will add a nice blurring effect---but use a tripod for this. Another thing you could do is use a soft filter for special close-ups of the bride and groom. There's lots of things you can do. However, it's better to keep things simple, use a tripod, and vary your shooting angles: high pointing down, low pointing up, etc. Shoot small segments, unless you're going to edit in NLE. One more tip. Try not to fall into the zooming, panning, and tilting traps. Use these sparingly---or for effect for certain type of scenes---like dance scenes. Good luck with your shoot!

January 10th, 2003, 05:36 AM	#74
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Frame mode does not drop one field and then interpolate from the reaminng field. It uses a sort of vertical pixel shift system sampling from both fields taken at the same instant. The net effect is half way between true progressive and single field interpolation, and it provides better resolution than interpolation of a single field. In any case, try it and the alternatives before using it on a money shoot to be sure the effect is acceptable to you. As with slow shutter, frame mode can produce good and bad effects on motion, depending on what you want to achieve.