GL2 / XM2 Frame mode

Stewart McDonald · June 27th, 2003, 07:34 AM

Is there a way to film in normal mode, and then use third party software to convert it to 24fps?

Graham Bernard · June 27th, 2003, 07:59 AM

Do a search for 24fps on the VEGAS forum at the sonicfoundry.com site. You could also download a demo of Vegas 4. Do a small render to the frame rate you wish. See if that fits the bill !

Grazie

Jeff Jordan · July 28th, 2003, 09:09 PM

Hi folks,

New GL2 user here. I think I have a good handle on the camera controls and now I know why everyone says "stay in manual mode!!" It is very easy to manipulate the exposure controls once you get the hang of it.

Question. I understand that frame mode drives the video at 30fps, which is the same as film, thus giving the video a film-like, soft appearance? It is also supposed to allow tack perfect still frame pulls, frame after frame.

I have been using the mode and don't get something. The manual states that when in frame mode, the picture may not appear "normal" under some conditions. I noticed in my footage of a coming summer storm, swaying trees from high winds and flying birds look very jerky-not a smooth motion at all.

Can anyone tell me why frame mode would not appear "normal" under all shooting conditions since, I think, it's the closest to film you can get at 30fps?

I have also heard folks on the forum here rave about frame mode. I assume that is because under controlled conditions, it does look fabulous?

thanks.

Ken Tanaka · July 28th, 2003, 10:06 PM

Hello Jeff,
Do a Search on Frame Mode here, as we probably have at least 1,000 threads on the topic.

But let's at least get you headed in the right direction. Standard NTSC video does record at 30 frames per second (fps). Film, however, uses 24 fps. So the relationship between "film look" and Canon's frame mode has no basis on that front.

Canon's frame mode is a variant of "progressive scan" recording. Video is composed of two interlaced fields of lines. Normal video recording actually records alternating fields of lines every 1/60th sec. (sometimes called 60i). Progressive scan recording records both fields simultaneously. "Frame mode" uses a proprietary technique to record that 2nd field.

Why can Frame Mode look jerky? For much the same reason that carelessly or amatuerishly shot film can also look jerky. Progressive frames' lack of interlacing can leave the eye/brain with scant motion clues, particularly at high shutter speeds. Hence, the frequent addition of "motion blur" effects in post production.

The best way to learn about frame mode: shoot, shoot, shoot, experiment, and review!

Jack Robertson · July 28th, 2003, 10:17 PM

"I have also heard folks on the forum here rave about frame mode. I assume that is because under controlled conditions, it does look fabulous?"

Well I guess you nailed it right there...

When professional movies are made, all angles, motion, and other key elements of the shot would have been worked out before hand and well rehearsed.

Most people using Frame Mode for "Handy Cam" style shooting will get jerky results because the smoothness of film cranes, dollys and steadicams is not there.

A lot of the times the "Film Look" is a objectionable and heats up a lot of argument as to which looks better...

In Films, having a blur & stuttering effect is usually desired in certain parts of a shot. For example if someone is walking along a street, the actor/subject is the main focus and is being tracked by the camera, so in essence they are always in the same position of the frame... whereas the background is moving, which produces the blur and stutter effect... this is the way most people's eyes actually work, and most people don't even realise it... Try this: extend your hand away from you and lock your eyes on your finger and move your hand from left to right, now what you see is the finger in sharp focus and the background is blurred and stuttering… just like when watching films.

That is why the "Film Look" looks more natural and real life than interlaced video! Video seems to have everything in focus without the blur effect and thus it would take away from a shot like the one described above… with the subject walking along a street.

Obviously Film shot on Film will always look better than Video Shot in progressive mode like the “Frame Mode”, there are a lot of factors to why this is so, but this is a subject on its own.

Well this is the way I like to explain it,
Jack

Peter Moore · July 29th, 2003, 06:16 AM

"But let's at least get you headed in the right direction. Standard NTSC video does record at 30 frames per second (fps). Film, however, uses 24 fps. So the relationship between "film look" and Canon's frame mode has no basis on that front. "

I really disagree with that last part. Even though 30 is not 24, it is MUCH closer to the look than 60i is. 60i, because it is such a high frame rate, gives motion that looks life-like. Try rotating your head 90 degees fairly quickly and that's the motion 60i gives you. 30p can be "jerky" but exactly as Jack said getitng good quality depends on your technique. But when shot well, Frame Mode really does give a cinematic appearance, at least in terms of motion, that 60i does not.

However, my understanding is that if you want to convert to 24p later, you're much better off with 60i than with 30p. Your images will be slightly less sharp than with 30p native, but you will be able to transfer to film if you ever want to, or make a 24p progressive scan DVD, etc. (of course you're better off just making a 30p progressive scan DVD if you're not concerned about film transfer).

Jonathan Richards · July 29th, 2003, 07:03 AM

Or buy a PAL XM2 which works at 25fps!

Ken Tanaka · July 29th, 2003, 11:51 AM

Peter,
I believe you misunderstood my remark, "So the relationship between "film look" and Canon's frame mode has no basis on that front.", and you actually reiterated my main point in your argument.

The point I was trying to lead into was that whatever "film-like look" that might be ascribed to Canon's frame mode is related primarily to it's deinterlacing and not to frame rate shifts (which it does not offer). I remarked about the frame rate because Jeff was confused about that subject in his first post.

I believe we actually agree on the main point.

Peter Moore · July 29th, 2003, 08:22 PM

Ah, yes I see, sorry. :)

I also wholeheartedly agree with Jonathan - PAL is a great alternative to NTSC for filmmaking. PAL XM2 frame mode at 25 fps only has to be slowed down by 4% (barely noticeable), AND offers increased resolution, so your 16x9 mode should look pretty darn good too.

And if you need to make it NTSC, you just slow it down to 24p, then use 3:2 to make it 60i.

Jonathan Richards · July 30th, 2003, 02:11 AM

I'm getting great results using frame mode on my new XM2. The increased resolution is visible and with a Cokin 'P' Series Diffuser filter, I'm getting a lovely look.

You can see a couple of frames from my latest music video here:
http://www.imageonartworks.co.uk/dvinfo/sample1.jpg
http://www.imageonartworks.co.uk/dvinfo/sample2.jpg
http://www.imageonartworks.co.uk/dvinfo/sample3.jpg

Nigel Moore · July 30th, 2003, 06:59 AM

Those shots look great Jonathan. What number(s) Cokin filters are you using?

Jonathan Richards · July 30th, 2003, 07:09 AM

I'm using a Cokin 'P' Series Diffuser 1, No 830.

Glad you like them - we shot them at 5.30am in the South of England!

Richard R Rivera · August 1st, 2003, 08:19 PM

Im using movie mode and the shots look like slow motion and i would like to know why and how to set it to were its not doing that.

Some said that it might be the ires setting or the gain, but im new to this camera and dont know what seeting its or menus to set it right. ill be filming a movie soon and wold gladly take any ones advise that will help me out.

Richard

Andres Lucero · August 1st, 2003, 11:37 PM

It's probably not movie mode that's causing the problem; if you're using auto-exposure in low light settings, the shutter speed is probably changing to compensate, resulting in "streaking" video.

Check out page 76 of the manual to read more about adjusting the shutter & exposure settings manually. You can download it from here if you don't have a copy handy:

http://www.canondv.com/downloads/product_manuals.html

What you'll want to do is keep the shutter speed at 1/30 or 1/60 for more natural movement under indoor lighting. Anything lower (1/15, 1/8) will give you that slow-motion effect like the attacking ape scenes in Congo.

(I'm new to the camera, too, so these are just suggestions based on my own personal experiences.)

Richard R Rivera · August 10th, 2003, 09:19 PM

still with the book and good lighting the nd comes on and the frame mode still looks kina slow motion still, i dont think im going to use movie mode if it looks that way on the lcd or eye piece.

Either i have a lemon GL2 or its still user error. i turn on the the camera then i set the mode to frame then i goe to the side of the camerea were the gain is and set it to according to what the books says is good 1/30 or 1/60 and the frame mode looks choppy or as i said slow motion.

DOES ANY ONE HAVE A GOOD ANSWER FOR THIS?

Im shooting a documentary soon and i want to beable to shot in frame mode, but i dont want a slow motion look. Help?

July 28th, 2003, 09:09 PM	#123
Jeff Jordan New Boot Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 18	Advantages of frame movie mode? Hi folks, New GL2 user here. I think I have a good handle on the camera controls and now I know why everyone says "stay in manual mode!!" It is very easy to manipulate the exposure controls once you get the hang of it. Question. I understand that frame mode drives the video at 30fps, which is the same as film, thus giving the video a film-like, soft appearance? It is also supposed to allow tack perfect still frame pulls, frame after frame. I have been using the mode and don't get something. The manual states that when in frame mode, the picture may not appear "normal" under some conditions. I noticed in my footage of a coming summer storm, swaying trees from high winds and flying birds look very jerky-not a smooth motion at all. Can anyone tell me why frame mode would not appear "normal" under all shooting conditions since, I think, it's the closest to film you can get at 30fps? I have also heard folks on the forum here rave about frame mode. I assume that is because under controlled conditions, it does look fabulous? thanks. __________________ 20X optical using "L" glass is a beautiful thing.

July 28th, 2003, 10:06 PM	#124
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Hello Jeff, Do a Search on Frame Mode here, as we probably have at least 1,000 threads on the topic. But let's at least get you headed in the right direction. Standard NTSC video does record at 30 frames per second (fps). Film, however, uses 24 fps. So the relationship between "film look" and Canon's frame mode has no basis on that front. Canon's frame mode is a variant of "progressive scan" recording. Video is composed of two interlaced fields of lines. Normal video recording actually records alternating fields of lines every 1/60th sec. (sometimes called 60i). Progressive scan recording records both fields simultaneously. "Frame mode" uses a proprietary technique to record that 2nd field. Why can Frame Mode look jerky? For much the same reason that carelessly or amatuerishly shot film can also look jerky. Progressive frames' lack of interlacing can leave the eye/brain with scant motion clues, particularly at high shutter speeds. Hence, the frequent addition of "motion blur" effects in post production. The best way to learn about frame mode: shoot, shoot, shoot, experiment, and review! __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

July 28th, 2003, 10:17 PM	#125
Jack Robertson Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 125	Advantages of frame movie mode? "I have also heard folks on the forum here rave about frame mode. I assume that is because under controlled conditions, it does look fabulous?" Well I guess you nailed it right there... When professional movies are made, all angles, motion, and other key elements of the shot would have been worked out before hand and well rehearsed. Most people using Frame Mode for "Handy Cam" style shooting will get jerky results because the smoothness of film cranes, dollys and steadicams is not there. A lot of the times the "Film Look" is a objectionable and heats up a lot of argument as to which looks better... In Films, having a blur & stuttering effect is usually desired in certain parts of a shot. For example if someone is walking along a street, the actor/subject is the main focus and is being tracked by the camera, so in essence they are always in the same position of the frame... whereas the background is moving, which produces the blur and stutter effect... this is the way most people's eyes actually work, and most people don't even realise it... Try this: extend your hand away from you and lock your eyes on your finger and move your hand from left to right, now what you see is the finger in sharp focus and the background is blurred and stuttering… just like when watching films. That is why the "Film Look" looks more natural and real life than interlaced video! Video seems to have everything in focus without the blur effect and thus it would take away from a shot like the one described above… with the subject walking along a street. Obviously Film shot on Film will always look better than Video Shot in progressive mode like the “Frame Mode”, there are a lot of factors to why this is so, but this is a subject on its own. Well this is the way I like to explain it, Jack

July 29th, 2003, 07:03 AM	#127
Jonathan Richards Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Hull, UK Posts: 107	Or buy a PAL XM2 which works at 25fps! __________________ Jonathan Richards -- Cameraman, Editor, Motion Graphic Artist Mobile +44(0)7939 512215 mail@jonathanrichards.tv

July 29th, 2003, 11:51 AM	#128
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Peter, I believe you misunderstood my remark, "So the relationship between "film look" and Canon's frame mode has no basis on that front.", and you actually reiterated my main point in your argument. The point I was trying to lead into was that whatever "film-like look" that might be ascribed to Canon's frame mode is related primarily to it's deinterlacing and not to frame rate shifts (which it does not offer). I remarked about the frame rate because Jeff was confused about that subject in his first post. I believe we actually agree on the main point. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

June 27th, 2003, 07:34 AM	#121
Stewart McDonald Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: UK Posts: 130	Is there a way to film in normal mode, and then use third party software to convert it to 24fps?

June 27th, 2003, 07:59 AM	#122
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Do a search for 24fps on the VEGAS forum at the sonicfoundry.com site. You could also download a demo of Vegas 4. Do a small render to the frame rate you wish. See if that fits the bill ! Grazie

July 29th, 2003, 06:16 AM	#126
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	"But let's at least get you headed in the right direction. Standard NTSC video does record at 30 frames per second (fps). Film, however, uses 24 fps. So the relationship between "film look" and Canon's frame mode has no basis on that front. " I really disagree with that last part. Even though 30 is not 24, it is MUCH closer to the look than 60i is. 60i, because it is such a high frame rate, gives motion that looks life-like. Try rotating your head 90 degees fairly quickly and that's the motion 60i gives you. 30p can be "jerky" but exactly as Jack said getitng good quality depends on your technique. But when shot well, Frame Mode really does give a cinematic appearance, at least in terms of motion, that 60i does not. However, my understanding is that if you want to convert to 24p later, you're much better off with 60i than with 30p. Your images will be slightly less sharp than with 30p native, but you will be able to transfer to film if you ever want to, or make a 24p progressive scan DVD, etc. (of course you're better off just making a 30p progressive scan DVD if you're not concerned about film transfer).

July 29th, 2003, 08:22 PM	#129
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Ah, yes I see, sorry. :) I also wholeheartedly agree with Jonathan - PAL is a great alternative to NTSC for filmmaking. PAL XM2 frame mode at 25 fps only has to be slowed down by 4% (barely noticeable), AND offers increased resolution, so your 16x9 mode should look pretty darn good too. And if you need to make it NTSC, you just slow it down to 24p, then use 3:2 to make it 60i.

July 30th, 2003, 02:11 AM	#130
Jonathan Richards Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Hull, UK Posts: 107	I'm getting great results using frame mode on my new XM2. The increased resolution is visible and with a Cokin 'P' Series Diffuser filter, I'm getting a lovely look. You can see a couple of frames from my latest music video here: http://www.imageonartworks.co.uk/dvinfo/sample1.jpg http://www.imageonartworks.co.uk/dvinfo/sample2.jpg http://www.imageonartworks.co.uk/dvinfo/sample3.jpg __________________ Jonathan Richards -- Cameraman, Editor, Motion Graphic Artist Mobile +44(0)7939 512215 mail@jonathanrichards.tv

July 30th, 2003, 06:59 AM	#131
Nigel Moore Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 358	Those shots look great Jonathan. What number(s) Cokin filters are you using?

July 30th, 2003, 07:09 AM	#132
Jonathan Richards Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Hull, UK Posts: 107	I'm using a Cokin 'P' Series Diffuser 1, No 830. Glad you like them - we shot them at 5.30am in the South of England! __________________ Jonathan Richards -- Cameraman, Editor, Motion Graphic Artist Mobile +44(0)7939 512215 mail@jonathanrichards.tv

August 1st, 2003, 08:19 PM	#133
Richard R Rivera New Boot Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 22	Im using movie mode by frame need help Im using movie mode and the shots look like slow motion and i would like to know why and how to set it to were its not doing that. Some said that it might be the ires setting or the gain, but im new to this camera and dont know what seeting its or menus to set it right. ill be filming a movie soon and wold gladly take any ones advise that will help me out. Richard __________________ If you dont use it , you'll just loose it!

August 1st, 2003, 11:37 PM	#134
Andres Lucero Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 75	It's probably not movie mode that's causing the problem; if you're using auto-exposure in low light settings, the shutter speed is probably changing to compensate, resulting in "streaking" video. Check out page 76 of the manual to read more about adjusting the shutter & exposure settings manually. You can download it from here if you don't have a copy handy: http://www.canondv.com/downloads/product_manuals.html What you'll want to do is keep the shutter speed at 1/30 or 1/60 for more natural movement under indoor lighting. Anything lower (1/15, 1/8) will give you that slow-motion effect like the attacking ape scenes in Congo. (I'm new to the camera, too, so these are just suggestions based on my own personal experiences.)

August 10th, 2003, 09:19 PM	#135
Richard R Rivera New Boot Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 22	well i looked in the book still with the book and good lighting the nd comes on and the frame mode still looks kina slow motion still, i dont think im going to use movie mode if it looks that way on the lcd or eye piece. Either i have a lemon GL2 or its still user error. i turn on the the camera then i set the mode to frame then i goe to the side of the camerea were the gain is and set it to according to what the books says is good 1/30 or 1/60 and the frame mode looks choppy or as i said slow motion. DOES ANY ONE HAVE A GOOD ANSWER FOR THIS? Im shooting a documentary soon and i want to beable to shot in frame mode, but i dont want a slow motion look. Help? __________________ If you dont use it , you'll just loose it!