HG10 MTS file for 24p analysis at DVinfo.net

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Canon VIXIA Series AVCHD and HDV Camcorders
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Old October 14th, 2007, 03:41 PM   #1
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HG10 MTS file for 24p analysis

The following link has a short 6 megabyte video captured with the HG10 in PF24 cine mode.

http://rapidshare.com/files/62567223/cinemode-PF24.MTS


I post it so other users can see the 24P the camera produces.
This clip is of no use for anything else but looking for 24P in 60i container issues.
( It's video of a post with bushes in the background, and the camera panning left to right to make the interlace and frame combination decoding more obvious . Hint: Look at the edge of the post)

The best way to understand this problem is to single frame advance the video, and see the motion blur vs interlace issues. Users that just play the video at speed may not see the issues at hand.

I can't seem to decode this video stream into a clean 24P no matter what I try. I use Cineforms HDLink to convert to formats that After Effects CS3 can use.
I tried having HDLink do the pulldown removal, and I tried AE's as well, but I get the 4th frame problem.
At this point, I conclude that the HG10 can not make 24 frames per second progressive frames. Somebody please prove me wrong !!!

Since I am exclusively using HDLink to convert from MTS to MOV, maybe it is the problem. I sure hope that is the case here.

This is NOT a AVCHD compressor weakness at all. It's blatant field to frame reconstruction problems.

-Les
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Old October 15th, 2007, 11:10 AM   #2
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Exactly what site is the download site, and why is it to be downloaded using various applications
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Old October 15th, 2007, 11:23 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Dit View Post
Users that just play the video at speed may not see the issues at hand.
I don't understand. Video is *meant* to be played at speed. If an issue isn't seen "at speed" then how can it be an issue?
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Old October 15th, 2007, 12:38 PM   #4
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for analysis

Chris,
What I meant is that you will see more of the exact nature of the problem by inspecting the frames carefully. I'm one of the types of people that don't notice some things at speed, but I need to know what is happening as well.

I primarily work with film, and both HD camcorders I have had previously were 720P, they made very nice individual frames, like film. I was hoping I can get frames out of the HG10 as well.


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I don't understand. Video is *meant* to be played at speed. If an issue isn't seen "at speed" then how can it be an issue?
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Old October 15th, 2007, 12:54 PM   #5
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Les.

I downloaded a similar file before. I am a PC user. I tried playing the video with no success on VLC or WMP. I tried to convert it using Cineform HDLink (Neo HDV), and did not have any success inside HDLink.


I then open Vegas 8, pulled the file into it, and it did play, albeit with a very jerky preview. I then converted it to a Cineform intermediate in Vegas 8, and the resulting file played beautifully on VLC and WMP.
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Old October 15th, 2007, 02:32 PM   #6
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any non progressive looking frames in there ?

Chris,
Can you tell if there are blend frames, or frames with interlace ?
-Les


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Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos View Post
Les.

I downloaded a similar file before. I am a PC user. I tried playing the video with no success on VLC or WMP. I tried to convert it using Cineform HDLink (Neo HDV), and did not have any success inside HDLink.


I then open Vegas 8, pulled the file into it, and it did play, albeit with a very jerky preview. I then converted it to a Cineform intermediate in Vegas 8, and the resulting file played beautifully on VLC and WMP.
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Old October 15th, 2007, 02:40 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by David Saraceno View Post
Exactly what site is the download site, and why is it to be downloaded using various applications
The download site is rapidshare, a file share site.
We are trying various tools to get true ( or the best ) progressive frames from the HG10 camera.
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Old October 16th, 2007, 05:13 AM   #8
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UPDATE: I figured it out, PF24 *is* 24 progressive

After a bunch of hunting down different h264 decoders, I now have 24 fps progressive frames for editing. It turns out that the 264 decoder that HDLink was using was the PowerDVD decoder, and it was doing some of it's own deinterlacing before the HDLink tool got to process it. I couldn't get the powerdvd decoder to turn off this mode, so I disabled it, and I am now using a Mainconcept h264 decoder that I think got installed with an Adobe app.

Graphedit was of great use to see what decoder was being used, and I used DSFMgr.exe to disable the problematic codec. Thanks David for the hints!

So the HG10 *does* make 24 progressive frames per second. I do see odd trailing effects behind out of focus objects that pan across the screen, but that is another story. In all, I am pleased with the look for purposes of a tiny vacation camera.
-Les

Last edited by Les Dit; October 16th, 2007 at 12:35 PM.
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Old October 16th, 2007, 01:12 PM   #9
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<offtopic>
What Ulead/Corel application is bundled with HG10? Can you use it to extract proper 24p? Can you use Mainconcept decoder with this app?
</offtopic>
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Old October 16th, 2007, 02:38 PM   #10
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Les is correct, this is a perfectly exactable 24p file, the trick is to make sure you have a work AVCHD Demux and decoder installed and the decoder is trying to deinterlace the footage.

Here is a 24p AVI from that sequence converted through CineForm HDLink.

http://www.miscdata.com/downloads/cinemode-PF24.zip

Les, nice example example of rolling shutter. :)
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Old October 16th, 2007, 03:16 PM   #11
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Very interesting info

Les,

1st off, thanks for the work you're doing. Due to it I joined this board to try and find some additional answers. This may be off-topic, so apologies if so, but I'm starting to get a little excited about this camcorder again after quite the rollercoaster leading up to its release. A little background...

I'm a non-professional camcorder user, but would like to go to HD video on an all-digital level (flash or HDD) using progressive frames only (I believe interlaced video's days are numbered). I know the Canon HV20 is highly regarded, but uses tape. The reviews on the HG10 (Hard Disk Drive) showed that 24P was unusable. Now that the camera is out, it still sounds like some think it has unusable video, and some don't (sounds like you've had a breakthrough). I don't want to shell out money for this camera unless I know I'll be able to get the 24P it's supposed to have, out of it. AND, as I'm a non-pro, I don't have the tools that you all do. Sooooo......

Assuming you have, in fact, obtained good 24P from the camcorder, is there any way to narrow down on the exact tools needed to do this, and their cost (for one who would be starting from scratch). As Michael J. asks, have any tests been run with the software that actually ships with the camera to see if it helps?

Thanks again for getting my hopes back up....

mike@slavis.com
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Old October 16th, 2007, 04:32 PM   #12
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Sounds to me like David is answering the question from the standpoint of Cineform.

If you don't know about it, Cineform sells various levels of programs designed to provide intermediate editing files to edit HDV with. It takes HDV, and now AVCHD and converts it to an .avi file or .mov file that can be used to edit in NLE's like Vegas, Premiere, and on Apple side, Final Cut Pro. I use Cineform's NeoHDV to capture and convert my HV20 24p tapes to true 24p .avi files. As inidicated here and elsewhere by David, you can convert the files from the HG10 by having proper AVC codecs on board. Neo HDV runs about $ 250.00 last time I looked, but has turned out to be a great tool in this 24p thing for me.
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Old October 16th, 2007, 05:33 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos View Post
As inidicated here and elsewhere by David, you can convert the files from the HG10 by having proper AVC codecs on board. Neo HDV runs about $ 250.00 last time I looked, but has turned out to be a great tool in this 24p thing for me.
Cineform is the best way to edit the AVCHD that these cameras make. The HDlink tool is smart and takes the guesswork out of getting back the original 24P frames.

The trick is making sure you have the correct decoder installed. My system had 3 installed, and I had to experiment to get one loaded that worked well. The two tools I mention in my previous post make this decoder selection easy. It is a little tricky for someone without some 'PC internals savvy' , but not too hard. I don't even know how the Mainconcept codec got on my system, I think it may have come with Premiere.
Users of AVCHD cameras will also want to investigate quality differences between the various decoders as there may be differences.
-Les
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Old October 16th, 2007, 05:47 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Les Dit View Post
Cineform is the best way to edit the AVCHD that these cameras make. The HDlink tool is smart and takes the guesswork out of getting back the original 24P frames.

The trick is making sure you have the correct decoder installed. My system had 3 installed, and I had to experiment to get one loaded that worked well. The two tools I mention in my previous post make this decoder selection easy. It is a little tricky for someone without some 'PC internals savvy' , but not too hard. I don't even know how the Mainconcept codec got on my system, I think it may have come with Premiere.
Users of AVCHD cameras will also want to investigate quality differences between the various decoders as there may be differences.
-Les
Would be nice to have some step by step instruction on how to isolate and use the codec for Cineform use. Think I got the gist from your prior post, but would be nice to have a little more detail.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 12:56 AM   #15
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I'm with you on that. I'm a newbie in terms of working with AVHCD, and to NLE's in general, but am a hardware and softare junky everywhere else. Seems like Cineform NEO HD is the way to go in terms of working with AVHCD but is there anything "simpler"? I'll go crawl the NLE threads but thought I'd tag along on this as well. I'm stoked to explore HD video/AVHCD via my new HG10 and would love to get started on the right path (i.e. one that involves minimal hair pulling...=).

Rob
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