HV20 23.98/24P workflow. Frustrated! at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon XA and VIXIA Series AVCHD Camcorders > Canon VIXIA Series AVCHD and HDV Camcorders

Canon VIXIA Series AVCHD and HDV Camcorders
For VIXIA / LEGRIA Series (HF G, HF S, HF and HV) consumer camcorders.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 4th, 2008, 01:43 PM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 336
HV20 23.98/24P workflow. Frustrated!

Hey everyone,

I am at my about to pull all of my hair out dealing with this! First let me tell you what I am trying to do: I am using the HV20 as a second cam to my XL2. I am shooting 24P and editing the footage in a 23.98 SD timline in FCP.

My XL2 footage is rev. telecined in cinema tools to a 23.98 frame rate, it looks awesome!

My HV20 footage is rev. telecined in Compressor, it looks horrible! The image is soft, it has missing frames and duplicate frames. I am trying to rev. telecine the footage to 23.976. I have read and read and followed the instructions on how to do this in compressor.

What am I doing wrong?

Can somebody please list their workflow on HV20 material in a 23.98/24P SD timeline? I would be very grateful and you would probably prevent me from throwing my HV20 through a wall! (joke) The whole reason I bought the cam is because of its 2:3:2:3 pulldown and 24P capabilities. I can't figure it out.

Just as an FYI, I am working on a mac, but it is Intel and I do have access to windows. Would prefer to learn a workflow on the mac though.

Thanks in advance,
Ryan
Ryan Mueller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2008, 02:20 PM   #2
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Elk Grove CA
Posts: 6,838
Check out this thread for example of issues involved. Then go to our HV20 Forum to learn more.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109989

Primary issue with 24p from HV20 is getting editor to recognize how the pulldown removal should be done. Canon did not provide flags to do that.

Cineform has conversion system to to that on capture, and there is a "free" process using several free programs out there too. Cineform is supposed to work with MAC too, but my experience is limited to PC side.
__________________
Chris J. Barcellos
Chris Barcellos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2008, 09:10 PM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Posts: 348
The HV20's 24p is not common 24p, which is why it's called PF24. You need to remove pulldown before you edit as 24p. http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/0...-24p-pulldown/
Eugenia Loli-Queru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2008, 09:25 PM   #4
Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: austin, tx
Posts: 300
what exactly is your compressor workflow?
__________________
Compositing is my life right now.
IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/
Austin Meyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2008, 11:40 PM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 336
Hey Austin,

I am using the workflow off of Apples website. I think I found my problem though, I didn't even think about the fact that if there were breaks where the camera stopped in between takes that it would mess up the pulldown removal.

Found this on the site posted by Eugenia, thanks for that!

I am going to run some more tests when I get some time. Thank you everybody for your help.

Ryan
Ryan Mueller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2008, 12:22 AM   #6
Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: austin, tx
Posts: 300
ok so i did some playing around and here's what i found...

are the file you output with compressor 29.97 or 23.98?

when you use a standard dv preset and then alter the frame controls for revtel it outputs 29.97 always. the trick is you have to edit the video settings and set the framerate to current for the inverse telecine to work correctly. this is also true of any of the SD presets. as for the softness i think that just might be dv in all it's glory.

and as far as the cadence breaking, that shouldn't be an issue with compressor as it automatically detects cadence (unlike cinema tools)
__________________
Compositing is my life right now.
IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/
Austin Meyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2008, 05:22 AM   #7
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
Posts: 1,259
Austin,

Breaks only mess up pulldown removal for the HV-20 because it doesn't pulldown flags. But for a program that can do an intelligent telecine removal, breaks are not a problem.

I can say is that TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0 is an awesome tool and it will remove the pulldown accurately. It's one of the best $100 purchases I've ever made.
Peter Moretti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2008, 11:23 AM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 336
Peter,

Thank you for suggesting the TMPGEnc. I will check it out as soon as I get home.

Ryan
Ryan Mueller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2008, 06:55 AM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 212
Images: 8
This Is Funny

I see people talking about this same subject over and over and using compressor for this......

If you are in Apple try using the FREE "JES Deinterlacer" do a google search for it, it will automatically read the pulldown cadence and output at whatever rate you want 23 or 24 and whatever format you want as well.

It works flawlessly, I usually choose to output 23,976 and use ProRes 422 HQ, is unbelievable how you can manipulate your colors and stuff after it is on that format (it takes abuse well)
__________________
Tomas A. Chinchilla | CANON XH A1, HV20 & HC3 | Retired Cams: GL2, HC1, FX1, Z1, | Final Cut Studio 2
Tomas Chinchilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2008, 06:57 AM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 212
Images: 8
Here you go

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeschot/home.html
__________________
Tomas A. Chinchilla | CANON XH A1, HV20 & HC3 | Retired Cams: GL2, HC1, FX1, Z1, | Final Cut Studio 2
Tomas Chinchilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2008, 10:18 AM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 336
Thomas,

I can't thank you enough! Nothing that I have used yet has yielded results that I see as satisfactory, until now. JES is easy to use, it is fast, and it removes the pulldown perfectly. This is the way I would suggest anyone to go in the future. The only method that I didn't try was After Effects, to my knowledge, but that was next on my list. Don't even need to try it. JES detects the cadence breaks, so I don't need to trim my clips either!

After I inverse telecine the footage and set the frame rate to 23.976, the footage looks spectacular in FCP. Did I mention that I am working in an SD timeline? JES has also, somehow, solved my problem of soft-looking SD footage.


Thank you again Thomas,
Ryan
Ryan Mueller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2008, 04:33 PM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 212
Images: 8
You are more than welcome.

Glad I can help.
__________________
Tomas A. Chinchilla | CANON XH A1, HV20 & HC3 | Retired Cams: GL2, HC1, FX1, Z1, | Final Cut Studio 2
Tomas Chinchilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2008, 11:36 PM   #13
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomas Chinchilla View Post
I see people talking about this same subject over and over and using compressor for this......

If you are in Apple try using the FREE "JES Deinterlacer" do a google search for it, it will automatically read the pulldown cadence and output at whatever rate you want 23 or 24 and whatever format you want as well.

It works flawlessly, I usually choose to output 23,976 and use ProRes 422 HQ, is unbelievable how you can manipulate your colors and stuff after it is on that format (it takes abuse well)
I wouldn't say "flawlessly" but pretty damn close to it.

It's also good for getting 560p60 footage from 1080i60 HDV. I'm experimenting with some of that now.
__________________
Equip: Panny GH1, Canon HG20, Juicedlink, AT897, Sennh. EW/GW100, Zoom H2, Vegas 8.1
Brian Boyko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2008, 09:26 AM   #14
Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: austin, tx
Posts: 300
I'm still curious about the issues you're having with compressor. Can you post some screen grabs of the compressor output as well as jes? What preset are you using in compressor? And you said that comp is not detecting cadence breaks?
__________________
Compositing is my life right now.
IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/
Austin Meyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2008, 08:31 PM   #15
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 336
Hey Austin,

Here is the process that I used to reverse tele. in compressor:

1. In Final Cut Pro, Log and Capture your clips shot as 1080p24 from the HV20 using the Easy Setup named
"HDV, 29.97, HDV - 1080i60 FireWire Basic".
2. In Compressor, choose Add File and navigate to the capture scratch folder for the clips you captured and
open them all.
3. Select the first clip in the batch.
4. Choose the setting named "Apple ProRes 422 for Progressive material" (found in Settings tab > Apple > Other
Workflows > Advanced Format Conversions > Apple Codecs), and drag it onto the first clip.
5. Double-click the setting on the first clip to highlight the Inspector window.
6. In Inspector > Encoder Settings > Video Settings, change the framerate to Custom, and enter 23.976.
7. In Inspector > Frame Controls, enable Frame Controls and make the following settings:
1. Set Frame Controls to On
2. Set Deinterlace to Reverse Telecine

So here are a couple of screen shots that depict what I am talking about. If you look at the time-code, you will see that there are two frames back to back that are identical (duplicate frames).
Attached Thumbnails
HV20 23.98/24P workflow. Frustrated!-frame-1.jpg   HV20 23.98/24P workflow. Frustrated!-frame-2.jpg  

Ryan Mueller is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon XA and VIXIA Series AVCHD Camcorders > Canon VIXIA Series AVCHD and HDV Camcorders

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:19 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network