New Canon AVCHD units - HF11 and HG21

[Mark Steele]

The HF11 looks interesting - full AVCHD spec of 24 Mbs.
http://gizmodo.com/5027604/canon-upd...-hg21-versions

[Chris Hurd]

Great! Thanks for the link Mark -- no mention of these yet on the Canon USA site but they're on the Japanese watch.impress A/V industry site at http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...0722/canon.htm -- the English translation is http://translate.google.com/translat...0722/canon.htm

Canon Inc. press release (in Japanese): http://cweb.canon.jp/newsrelease/2008-07/pr-hf11.html
English translation of Japanese press release: http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Canon Inc. HF11 product page (in Japanese): http://cweb.canon.jp/ivis/lineup/hiv...f11/index.html
English translation of HF11 product page: http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Canon Inc. HG21 product page (in Japanese): http://cweb.canon.jp/ivis/lineup/hiv...g21/index.html
English translation of HG21 product page: http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

HF11: built-in flash memory increased to 32GB, adds 24mbps MXP recording mode (Full HD like the FXP mode).

HG21: hard drive increased to 120GB, which records just over five hours at the highest bit rate of 24mbps. Now supports video recording to memory card. Card format is SD / SDHC (must be SDHC for video recording). CMOS image sensor changed to newer 3.1mp version used by HF series. Body shape now similar to HV30. Full HD (1920x1080) recording at MXP (24mbps) and FXP (17mbps) modes.

Both camcorders availabile in late August.

[John Palaganas]

Would it be better in quality than HDV's 25 mbit bitrate???

[Chris Hurd]

AVCHD is a completely different type of codec than HDV, so the bit rates do not directly compare.

24mbps in AVCHD should be *significantly* better than 25mbps in HDV.

[John Palaganas]

Hmm, has anyone ever done extensive analysis on how HDV and AVCHD quality compares???

[Chris Hurd]

Look in our AVCHD forum for posts and sample clips from Austin Meyers comparing the Canon HV20 (HDV) to the Canon HG10 (AVCHD). These two camcorders have the same lens and image sensor, and they differ only in format. The video clips prove how little difference there is between them; even the 24p modes were identical. Format doesn't affect image "quality" nearly as much as optics, processor and operator capability (all of which were equal in Austin's tests).

The primary difference between HDV and AVCHD is that of *workflow* -- tape vs. tapeless. Like any other new video format, ease of editing is currently the main challenge with AVCHD, but not for long. Hope this helps,

[Ethan Cooper]

My goodness they churn these little cameras out fast. How long ago did they release the HG10?

[Chris Hurd]

The HG10 was new one year ago: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=100215

[Tom Roper]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

AVCHD is a completely different type of codec than HDV, so the bit rates do not directly compare.

24mbps in AVCHD should be *significantly* better than 25mbps in HDV.

It should be significantly more efficient than XDCAM-EX mpeg2 35 mbps as well. I have the feeling that Canon will mate this codec to a XH-A1/XL-H1 succesor that will put it back on top.

[Ethan Cooper]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

It should be significantly more efficient than XDCAM-EX mpeg2 35 mbps as well. I have the feeling that Canon will mate this codec to a XH-A1/XL-H1 succesor that will put it back on top.

Don't forget that the Panansonic HCM-150 was announced a while back with 3 1/3" CCD's and the 24mbps option as well.

I'm going to make an assumption here that may get me in trouble, but is it possible that the AVCHD codec wasn't quite as efficient as they once thought? I remember it supposedly being comparable quality of HDV at roughly half the bitrate, but if that were true, why would all these companies feel the need to release a 24mbps version? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for higher quality recording options, but as I understood it AVCHD was billed as the HDV successor for tapeless acquisition due to it's smaller bitrates.

[Lubomir Zvolensky]

oh yes, this is excellent news. A1/H1 successors will not be on top, RED Scarlet will be [120fps with 180fps burst, 3K resolution, RAW format, 2/3" chip, professional handling, 3000$ price tag... by any means not comparable to current HDV toys].

All in all, I'm eagerly waiting for 24Mbps AVCHD samples.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

...if that were true, why would all these companies feel the need to release a 24mbps version?

Ha! Simple reason -- because of all the endless online whining and moaning that the full bit rate of the format wasn't being utilized, that's why. Regardless, a given format should live all the way up to its own potential. It's not about just being as good as HDV, it's about being "all it can be" (whatever that is). I just wish it was easier to edit!

[Ethan Cooper]

Originally Posted by Lubomir Zvolensky

A1/H1 successors will not be on top, RED Scarlet will be [120fps with 180fps burst, 3K resolution, RAW format, 2/3" chip, professional handling, 3000$ price tag...

As nice as Scarlet seems, I'm not sure she's the answer for event guys like myself who need longer record times. And unless you want to start a holy war, it might not be a good idea to bring her up in a discussion about a camera being released by an established player in the video industry.

All in all, I'm eagerly waiting for 24Mbps AVCHD samples.

Me too.

[Ethan Cooper]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

It's not about just being as good as HDV, it's about being "all it can be" (whatever that is). I just wish it was easier to edit!

I'd agree with you on both points. The light at the end of the tunnel for editing AVCHD is what we just finished going through with HDV a few years back. When it was first released, editing HDV was a chore. Now it's as easy as DV was before that.

It's scary to think that I've been doing video professionally for only 5 or 6 years now and we've been chewing through formats faster than I care to admit. Anyone remember DV50 and BetaCam SX? My how time flies.

[Evan C. King]

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

As nice as Scarlet seems, I'm not sure she's the answer for event guys like myself who need longer record times. And unless you want to start a holy war, it might not be a good idea to bring her up in a discussion about a camera being released by an established player in the video industry.



Me too.

Exactly scarlet should be great but that doesn't make it great for all markets.