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Canon VIXIA Series AVCHD and HDV Camcorders
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Old October 28th, 2008, 05:43 PM   #1
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im sick of being an hdv idiot

Okay, i am in a pickle here folks...a self induced stupid pickle.
i just bought 2 hv30s and they are awesome. that seems like a huge problem right?
heh.
the problem is that i have no idea what to do with them...let me rephrase that, i have no idea what the proper hdv workflow is.
i have been working with dv since the beginning so i'm not a total idiot but this hdv thing is perplexing me.
i know that working hdv is a physically taxing feat for any pc and i am absolutely positive that i dont have the horseys to work properly, but i want to come close even if it means longer than normal usual render time.
i have been shooting and down converting from the camera which as we all know is leaving me with a terrible muddy looking dv style product.
so here's what i'm working with kids;
2 of the aforementioned canon hv30s
xp pro running on the frankenstien of all PCs:
2 gigs of ram
900 gb of hd space (120 on board sata drive for programs)
adobe premiere pro (premiere 7 to be exact)
a fresh copy of premiere cs3 still in the box.
standard issue firewire card

i have heard that there are certain codecs that i need (cine something is ringing a bell) and something about hdv split, but honestly i have no idea what the hell any of it means.
know i know that some of you will read this and immediately point me to a book of some sort that will teach me to do things the right way.
2 things about that
1.) those books read like stereo instructions and i wont retain any information at all.
2.) i dont have any money...i just bought 2 hv30s.

so what do you think kind forums people?
will you help me?
thanks in advance for your help and stay with me here guys...the 24p saga is to follow!
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Old October 28th, 2008, 05:55 PM   #2
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Your editing program is ?????

The "cine" you are talking about is Cineform.

I use Cineform NeoHDV to edit in Vegas8 with, and I have used it on two earlier versions of Vegas too. Essentially, what happens is you capture throught Cineform HDLink, and during capture, the footage is converted to .avi file HD intermediate file. It is easier on your hardware because the resulting file has information for each frame, and the processor does not have to "add" data for each frame, as happens in HDV.

The resulting files are much larger, but they are also much more amenable to color correction and application of filters.

Vegas 8 does edit in native HDV as well, but it will put a load on your processor.

In addition, with your HV30 you have access to 24p shooting, which Cineform converts into true 24p avi files for a great 24p result.
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Old October 28th, 2008, 06:43 PM   #3
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He mentioned that he is using Premier 7.

And he has a "fresh copy of cs3"
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Old October 28th, 2008, 06:56 PM   #4
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I don't know anything about Premiere, but most NLEs today handle HDV about as easy as DV. FCP and Vegas take Canon's 24f in HDV, but Avid doesn't. Don't know about Premiere.
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Old October 29th, 2008, 10:39 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Pryor View Post
I don't know anything about Premiere, but most NLEs today handle HDV about as easy as DV. FCP and Vegas take Canon's 24f in HDV, but Avid doesn't. Don't know about Premiere.
Premiere CS3 does capture HDV natively, but the mpeg codec it uses is a bit unstable. It takes for ever for the project to reindex the footage whenever you make the premiere window active. Your best bet when it comes to Premiere is get the Cineform plugin for PPro. I use Aspect HD and it works like a dream. Very stable.
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Old October 29th, 2008, 01:24 PM   #6
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Michael,
yes sir, "he" does use premiere 7 and "he" also has a fresh copy of cs3 not opened yet.
the reason for this is because i have been making shorts and small features for a long time but its all mostly basic cuts, disolves and some simple color correction(i never needed anything else). but when i bought the 30s i decided that perhaps cs3 would be necessary.
so let me make sure that i have this right, i have some options here:
1.) i could use hdsplit to capture my footage, which will capture iverything to avi
2.) i could use cineform as a plugin for premiere pro which will estentially do the same thinkg as 1
3.) i could just use cs3 and capture in hd nativley if a little unstable

is that right?
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Old October 30th, 2008, 01:33 AM   #7
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Jason,

Here's my workflow, I capture footage with HDV Split, it doesn't turn it into an avi file though.. I think it's a mt2 file, anyways after I've captured footage I import it into Premiere CS3... It works fine, but my PC is a pretty fast one... I think though if you have a slow PC that cineform, or other programs would help by turning the footage into a less stressful codec for the PC. Perhaps you are better of going to staples and picking up a nice quad core PC, they are getting pretty cheap...it might cost a bit more than cineform or another program but you will be able to cut through the hdv without a hiccup.... Just my 2 cents!
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Old October 30th, 2008, 07:07 AM   #8
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Hi Jason,

To try to clarify your questions, you are trying to get some help in the work flow for 24p (from the 24 Frame mode) out of the HV30s in CS3 in most economical fashion?

To add to that, you don't think that you have the horsepower in you computer system to run CS3 efficiently? Furthermore, you're strapped for cash?

Don't ask for much, do you? ;-)

Cineform is defintely one way to go that transcodes the HDV from MPEG2 Transport Stream (TS) to avi for editing that is great for Premiere - it does require a good system.

You could use HDVSplit, and then http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/hdv2-cano...-settings.html as a low cost ($100) encoding program that is terrific and will remove the pull down and give you a 24P MPEG2 TS HDV file suitable for editing in Premiere CS3 or Vegas or Ulead's VideoStudio or whatever edits MPEG2 HDV - most NLEs do. The benefit of it is that it is a standalone program and it also converts any number of CODECs to any number of other CODECs. I would remove the pull down prior to the edit.

But Brian is right, I'd get the Quad Core first.
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Old October 31st, 2008, 05:53 PM   #9
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Hello Jason,

I might have a few small things to add to the rest.
Over here in Europe we record in 50i or 25P. In the US you can choose between 60i, 24P and 30P i presume.
When you record in 60i or 24P (Canon might name it: 24F, but that's almost the same...) you have to make a remark on the tape. Later on you have to capture your video in one of these modes. So: record in 24P (F), then capture in 24P (F).

On pc most of the software uses a non-intermediate codec. All the material will be captured in Mpeg2 Transport stream. That's almost the same as a normal Mpeg stream, but this one has a few extra bits with information which is more suitable for transport.

If you capture in m2t this will mean the computer has to do lots of calculating the original video material. There is also a very small loss each time you do that.

If you capture with intermediate codecs on pc (like the CineForm codecs) all frames will be transformed in to single frames. Groups of Pictures will be gone (like Mpeg has) and the result and speed of editin will be much better. There is a price though...

You might consider to step over to Apple. Final Cut Pro has it's own Intermediate Codecs and works with almost anything. But! Be carefull with the transition because the files once made on your PC are not always interchangable with Mac. Mac is also expensive. But hey, I thought I give this knowledge to you, for free.

So: normal codecs: lots of processor strength needed, needs lots of time and there is a chance you loose picture because of the color space.
intermediate codecs: expensive but fast. Work in 422 color space, which means better results. Those are available with Cineform and Final Cut Pro.

Good luck with editing.
Tomorow I'm going to buy my new HV30, as a second camera next to my XH-A1.
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Old November 1st, 2008, 10:24 AM   #10
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One word... and it has been mentioned several times here....

CINEFORM

you will like it, your HV30 cams love it....

Download it and try it out.... use the HV20 (24P) settings they show
here ....

https://www.cineform.com/products/Te...apSettings.htm
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Old November 2nd, 2008, 08:43 AM   #11
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I'll chuck in here in favor of a more powerful PC. I can cut HDV footage on my dual core Sony laptop, but it's painful. Move the same project over to my quad core and life is good. There's simply no substitute for power, memory and disk space.

Whilst many endorse Cineform, I do not. I've tried it twice and was disappointed both times. It caused technical problems in my system and trouble tickets went unanswered for days. The world cannot work that way for someone trying to make a living at this.

I think you'd be best served by upgrading your computer first.
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Old November 6th, 2008, 01:36 PM   #12
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Thanks for all the great advice as always guys. i appreciate it as always.
I'm trying out the cineform in the short term but i think i'm going quad core in a month or 2.
Thanks again!
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