Rolling shutter effect? at DVinfo.net

Glenn Thomas · August 3rd, 2006, 06:46 PM

I was just curious if the CMOS sensor in the HV10 would give you that same rolling shutter effect as the cheaper Sony models? That's my only real problem with the HC1 I have. How the vertical lines on fast moving objects such as trains or trucks passing by end up looking diagonal. I sometimes notice much smaller artifacts that are probably caused by this also.

Chris Hurd · August 3rd, 2006, 08:17 PM

Good question. No way to know until it starts shipping in September.

Glenn Thomas · August 5th, 2006, 05:23 AM

Ok Chris, thanks. It'll be interesting to find out.

Glenn Thomas · October 11th, 2006, 02:16 PM

Now that the camera has been released for some time, does anyone have an answer to this question?

If not, any chance any of you with a HV10 would be able find out if there is or isn't a rolling shutter effect by shooting a high speed train or bus passing by from a stationary position?

Cheers,

Glenn

Mikko Lopponen · October 12th, 2006, 02:26 AM

Just pan the camera quickly. Very easy to spot with the hc1 or for example with low quality cellphone cameras. Or shake it around, if the picture "wobbles" then it has it. Easier to spot with straight lines and with a high shutter.

Max Morris · October 13th, 2006, 01:16 AM

I have had the camera for 3 weeks now and have not noticed any. I have a shoot in Seattle I will specificly pan and look :)

So far I love this camera, I bought it as a deck for my H1 and have used it as a POV on some shoots. Both images are incredible.

Off this subject...I am thinking of getting the Covergent Design HD - Connect LE to bring in footage HD/SDI because working with HDV files is a pain in the patooee. I am running a Matrox Axio setup. Anyone thinking about doing the same or has done it already?

Luis de la Cerda · October 13th, 2006, 11:41 AM

I'll try to do some tests. I was dissappointed with the sony hc1 for this very reason since it makes post stabilization impossible and I use these small cameras to shoot running footage of cars. I usually shoot with a very high shutter speed (1/500th or so) and stabilize and add motion blur in post to achieve impossibly steady shots and opening up the possibility to do sky replacements and such. HD now makes it possible for me to do it without losing resolution when I shoot for SD. But when you stabilize hc1 footage the image is scaled along the vertical axis as the camera bounces around, making it unusable. I recently purchased an hv10 but haven't had the chance to put it through it's paces. (Very busy right now) Of course, footage originated on the XL-H1 works wonderfully for this purpose, but it is a bit heavy and expensive to try some of the riskier shots. :)

Lee Wilson · October 13th, 2006, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis de la Cerda

I usually shoot with a very high shutter speed (1/500th or so) and stabilize and add motion blur in post to achieve impossibly steady shots and opening up the possibility to do sky replacements and such. HD now makes it possible for me to do it without losing resolution when I shoot for SD.

Same here !

this is the reason I am going to look at a HV10.

Glenn Thomas · October 13th, 2006, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis de la Cerda

I'll try to do some tests. I was dissappointed with the sony hc1 for this very reason since it makes post stabilization impossible and I use these small cameras to shoot running footage of cars. I usually shoot with a very high shutter speed (1/500th or so) and stabilize and add motion blur in post to achieve impossibly steady shots and opening up the possibility to do sky replacements and such.

Hi Luis, that would great, thanks. I guess just a quick pan past a vertical straight edge would do the trick to see if it's there or not. I never knew about the rolling shutter effect when I first bought the HC1. If the HV10 doesn't have that problem I'll seriously consider it, as I've been very impressed with the footage I've seen. Otherwise I'll just wait for the Canon A1.

Aki Peltokoski · October 14th, 2006, 01:04 AM

I'm not sure, what are you talking about, but if you mean the effect, that the vertical elements are kind of bending to the direction you are moving the camera, then yes, it's there....

But I'm pretty sure my VX2000 and PD150 (pro cameras) has this same thing?? :/

http://axu.fidisk.fi/pub2/hv10.h264.mov

Luis de la Cerda · October 14th, 2006, 12:39 PM

What I meant by my earlier post was the following. When the camera starts bouncing on a vehicle mount, it sometimes tilts up and down and this is what caused me the most grief. The rolling shutter means the image is not captured all at the same time, but rather the upper portion of the frame is captured first and the bottom portion last. When the camera tilts up, by the time the rolling shutter gets to capturing the bottom portion of the image, the image being captured has moved down a bit, causing the features to become stretched vertically. The opposite happens when the camera tilts down, causing the image to become vertically squashed. When you watch the untouched footage the effect is not too noticeable, but when you stabilize by pinning down a certain feature of the image to a fixed position in the frame, you can really notice the squashing and stretching.

Mikko Lopponen · October 15th, 2006, 03:20 AM

Yup. The "wobbling" effect is pretty horrible, especially when doing shaky motions or when something moves fast across the frame. After I deinterlace the picture it's pretty apparent and any slow-motion will have to be carefully planned to not look weird.

Mikko Lopponen · October 15th, 2006, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aki Peltokoski

I'm not sure, what are you talking about, but if you mean the effect, that the vertical elements are kind of bending to the direction you are moving the camera, then yes, it's there....
http://axu.fidisk.fi/pub2/hv10.h264.mov

Yup, the hv10 seems to have a rolling shutter too.

Aki Peltokoski · October 15th, 2006, 06:12 AM

Luis de la Cerda, ok, I understand the problem now. That sounds pretty annoying, since I was going stabilize much of the footage I'm going to shoot with this camera.. :( (mainly high motion winter sports action).

In which situations this effect is most visible - At certain shutter speeds? Is there any help if I increase or reduce the shutter speed?

Pete Bauer · October 15th, 2006, 06:40 AM

A picture's worth a thousand words. Can those of you who have seen it in your footage post some screen grabs showing the rolling shutter effect?

August 3rd, 2006, 06:46 PM	#1
Glenn Thomas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 320	Rolling shutter effect? I was just curious if the CMOS sensor in the HV10 would give you that same rolling shutter effect as the cheaper Sony models? That's my only real problem with the HC1 I have. How the vertical lines on fast moving objects such as trains or trucks passing by end up looking diagonal. I sometimes notice much smaller artifacts that are probably caused by this also.

August 3rd, 2006, 08:17 PM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Good question. No way to know until it starts shipping in September. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 13th, 2006, 01:16 AM	#6
Max Morris New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 12	I have had the camera for 3 weeks now and have not noticed any. I have a shoot in Seattle I will specificly pan and look :) So far I love this camera, I bought it as a deck for my H1 and have used it as a POV on some shoots. Both images are incredible. Off this subject...I am thinking of getting the Covergent Design HD - Connect LE to bring in footage HD/SDI because working with HDV files is a pain in the patooee. I am running a Matrox Axio setup. Anyone thinking about doing the same or has done it already? __________________ me thinks me likes

October 15th, 2006, 06:40 AM	#15
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	A picture's worth a thousand words. Can those of you who have seen it in your footage post some screen grabs showing the rolling shutter effect? __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

August 5th, 2006, 05:23 AM	#3
Glenn Thomas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 320	Ok Chris, thanks. It'll be interesting to find out.

October 11th, 2006, 02:16 PM	#4
Glenn Thomas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 320	Now that the camera has been released for some time, does anyone have an answer to this question? If not, any chance any of you with a HV10 would be able find out if there is or isn't a rolling shutter effect by shooting a high speed train or bus passing by from a stationary position? Cheers, Glenn

October 12th, 2006, 02:26 AM	#5
Mikko Lopponen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 393	Just pan the camera quickly. Very easy to spot with the hc1 or for example with low quality cellphone cameras. Or shake it around, if the picture "wobbles" then it has it. Easier to spot with straight lines and with a high shutter.

October 13th, 2006, 11:41 AM	#7
Luis de la Cerda Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Mexico City Posts: 181	I'll try to do some tests. I was dissappointed with the sony hc1 for this very reason since it makes post stabilization impossible and I use these small cameras to shoot running footage of cars. I usually shoot with a very high shutter speed (1/500th or so) and stabilize and add motion blur in post to achieve impossibly steady shots and opening up the possibility to do sky replacements and such. HD now makes it possible for me to do it without losing resolution when I shoot for SD. But when you stabilize hc1 footage the image is scaled along the vertical axis as the camera bounces around, making it unusable. I recently purchased an hv10 but haven't had the chance to put it through it's paces. (Very busy right now) Of course, footage originated on the XL-H1 works wonderfully for this purpose, but it is a bit heavy and expensive to try some of the riskier shots. :)

October 14th, 2006, 01:04 AM	#10
Aki Peltokoski New Boot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Pornainen, Finland Posts: 16	I'm not sure, what are you talking about, but if you mean the effect, that the vertical elements are kind of bending to the direction you are moving the camera, then yes, it's there.... But I'm pretty sure my VX2000 and PD150 (pro cameras) has this same thing?? :/ http://axu.fidisk.fi/pub2/hv10.h264.mov

October 14th, 2006, 12:39 PM	#11
Luis de la Cerda Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Mexico City Posts: 181	What I meant by my earlier post was the following. When the camera starts bouncing on a vehicle mount, it sometimes tilts up and down and this is what caused me the most grief. The rolling shutter means the image is not captured all at the same time, but rather the upper portion of the frame is captured first and the bottom portion last. When the camera tilts up, by the time the rolling shutter gets to capturing the bottom portion of the image, the image being captured has moved down a bit, causing the features to become stretched vertically. The opposite happens when the camera tilts down, causing the image to become vertically squashed. When you watch the untouched footage the effect is not too noticeable, but when you stabilize by pinning down a certain feature of the image to a fixed position in the frame, you can really notice the squashing and stretching.

October 15th, 2006, 03:20 AM	#12
Mikko Lopponen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 393	Yup. The "wobbling" effect is pretty horrible, especially when doing shaky motions or when something moves fast across the frame. After I deinterlace the picture it's pretty apparent and any slow-motion will have to be carefully planned to not look weird.

October 15th, 2006, 06:12 AM	#14
Aki Peltokoski New Boot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Pornainen, Finland Posts: 16	Luis de la Cerda, ok, I understand the problem now. That sounds pretty annoying, since I was going stabilize much of the footage I'm going to shoot with this camera.. :( (mainly high motion winter sports action). In which situations this effect is most visible - At certain shutter speeds? Is there any help if I increase or reduce the shutter speed?