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Canon VIXIA Series AVCHD and HDV Camcorders
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Old August 11th, 2006, 01:00 PM   #16
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Chris, I'd pay $400 for it (which is an added 1/3 of the camera's selling price), in other words the camera being priced at around $1500-$1600 to do 24F.
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Old August 11th, 2006, 04:28 PM   #17
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Sounds reasonable to me, Peter, thanks for the feedback. I wonder if we should run a poll. No guarantee that it will accomplish anything though.
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Old August 11th, 2006, 04:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
Sounds reasonable to me, Peter, thanks for the feedback. I wonder if we should run a poll. No guarantee that it will accomplish anything though.
Let's do it Chris! I think running a poll would be a great idea. We have nothing to loose either way except gaining some knowledge in analyzing current market awareness of frame/ progressive technology and also possibly help raise the interest of both buyers and manufacturers in making it a standard feature of mainstream video cameras.

Thanks!
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Old August 11th, 2006, 05:10 PM   #19
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$400 For enabling 24p

I agree, sure we would like to see it free, but considering there really are so few alternatives, using it as a b cam $400 would work, and it MIGHT make it worth CANON'S while

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Old August 11th, 2006, 05:28 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Sharyn Ferrick
I agree, sure we would like to see it free, but considering there really are so few alternatives, using it as a b cam $400 would work, and it MIGHT make it worth CANON'S while

SHARYN
Precisely! Personally, I'll be the first person to jump on the XH A1 as soon as they are out (to replace my nuch beloved but dissapointing Panny HVX200) and I cannot imagine a better low-cost b cam in the $1500 range as a 24F shooting HV10. Canon will/would absolutely grab a whole new market share well worth their time.
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Old August 12th, 2006, 09:40 PM   #21
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I totally agree with Chris-
Having worked in retail electronics and dealt with SO MANY of the target customers for this camcorder I can say WITHOUT A DOUBT that introducing 24p would just be a nightmare for the people who sell the camera (who generally don't understand 24p themselves) and tech support. The target buyer for this camera (NOT the aspiring indie filmmakers looking for a cheap camera but the vast majority of people who will purchase this camcorder- i.e. soccer moms) have NO CLUE what 24p is, how to use it, or WHY they would want to. They'll just set the 24p mode and then, if they even figure out how to import the footage into their computer, they'll be running into editting and export issues with their consumer grade editing software that wont recognise their 24fps footage.

These are the same people who came to me insisting they had seen in a store, or had a friend who actually owned an 8mm tape to VHS adapter so they could play their 8mm camcorder tapes in their VCRs. After wasting far to many hours trying to explain to these people that there is no such adapter and you simply cant play an 8mm tape in a standard VCR no matter the adapter, I can tell you that putting a 24fps camera in the hands of a soccer mom or dad is a DANGEROUS THING and is just ASKING for trouble. It would be the EXACT SAME type of deal as trying to plug an 8mm video tape into their VCR.
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Old August 12th, 2006, 11:12 PM   #22
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Ah yes. The good ol' 8mm to VHS cassette adapter. And its spawn, the USB to FireWire adapter. Now I know that you have been in the retail trenches for real Tommy. Thanks for getting the consumer mindset across to our audience here much better than I could.
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Old August 13th, 2006, 02:14 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Ruddell
I totally agree with Chris-
Having worked in retail electronics and dealt with SO MANY of the target customers for this camcorder I can say WITHOUT A DOUBT that introducing 24p would just be a nightmare for the people who sell the camera (who generally don't understand 24p themselves) and tech support. The target buyer for this camera (NOT the aspiring indie filmmakers looking for a cheap camera but the vast majority of people who will purchase this camcorder- i.e. soccer moms) have NO CLUE what 24p is, how to use it, or WHY they would want to. They'll just set the 24p mode and then, if they even figure out how to import the footage into their computer, they'll be running into editting and export issues with their consumer grade editing software that wont recognise their 24fps footage.

These are the same people who came to me insisting they had seen in a store, or had a friend who actually owned an 8mm tape to VHS adapter so they could play their 8mm camcorder tapes in their VCRs. After wasting far to many hours trying to explain to these people that there is no such adapter and you simply cant play an 8mm tape in a standard VCR no matter the adapter, I can tell you that putting a 24fps camera in the hands of a soccer mom or dad is a DANGEROUS THING and is just ASKING for trouble. It would be the EXACT SAME type of deal as trying to plug an 8mm video tape into their VCR.
That 8mm example made me laugh out loud. I totally agree with you and man, what a great analogy. To add to that, if soccer moms could shoot 24fps then 24fps would just not be the same. It could lose it's special charactoristic that is associated with professional cinematography. It just wouldnt be cool anymore. I hate those soccer moms.

Most consumers don't even realize there is a difference between film and video. I get tired of explaining it everyday when someone calls me up, wondering what the difference between the reality and cinematic package is. I don't even know why I bother with the two frame rates.

Only video geeks would care about the 24ps feature and most of those guys would probably spring for something more pro.
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Old August 13th, 2006, 02:16 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
Ah yes. The good ol' 8mm to VHS cassette adapter. And its spawn, the USB to FireWire adapter. Now I know that you have been in the retail trenches for real Tommy. Thanks for getting the consumer mindset across to our audience here much better than I could.

HAHAHAHA! Anytime Chris! If I can prevent anyone else in retail electronics from suffering my retail fate I will gladly do so. You see I was "the guy with all the answers" at the store- and because of that I was busy finding people the non-existant adapters they needed instead of making any decent sales. I learned quickly how to talk tech to a customer in a language they could understand- but even at that there are some people you just cant tell anything to. So at one point I put my money where my mouth was. I offered to pay one guy $2000 for a working VHS to 8MM adapter because he knew "for a fact" I had no clue what I was talking about. He came in straight from Walmart with the VHS to VHS-C adapter that the guy at Walmart proudly told him was exactly what he needed. I told him if he took it home and could successfully make an 8mm cassette play in his VCR I would gladly pay him the $2000 i promised. Strangely I never heard from that guy again. Misinformation was a constant thorn in my side.

I have a hard time going into any electronics store to this day because there is ALWAYS some "professional" spreading the same lies that made my job hell!

;)

I can only imagine the torment of some poor retail clerk trying to explain how to effectively use 24p to a complete newbie who barely understands how to capture footage and uses the free editting program that came with their DVD burner...

NIX to the 24p consumer-grade cams! NIX I SAY! Intro level for 24p should stay at the prosumer cams for now. At least until they standardize things so a complete newbie can do it without problems.
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Old August 13th, 2006, 03:01 AM   #25
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Some how I think the last few posters have missed what we are recommending, we are saying, CANON offer a program where the 'ENLIGHTENED' can send in the camcorder to Canon and get this feature enabled, and pay for it.

In this day of software controlled devices, I think somepeople miss that there could be hidden menu items etc so if Canon wanted to they could hide the feature, remember the old colorbar trick in the vx1000???

I still say that TODAY the person who is going to buy this camcorder is not your version of the brain dead consumer, as the market matures more, possibly, but we are still in the early adopter stage.

If you want to see something that IS going to drive retailers crazy with returns, just wait till the new Sony AVCHD dvd camcorders get out them and peole try to play the AVCHD mini dvd in their home dvd player...I can alread hear the screams "what do you mean it will not play in my dvd player?????? I need to buy a WHAT. Having a hidden menu function or a power on sequence or having people send them in to get it enabled will be minor. Canon is already offer a similar service on the other HD line with the ability to enable 50 based frame rates.


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Old August 13th, 2006, 04:53 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Sharyn Ferrick
Some how I think the last few posters have missed what we are recommending, we are saying, CANON offer a program where the 'ENLIGHTENED' can send in the camcorder to Canon and get this feature enabled, and pay for it.
I agree they could offer something like this- but I doubt they would want to for several reasons- first of which is the simple fact that implementing such an upgrade and then hiding it carries a cost in and of its own. The question is would the few people who sent in or hacked their own cameras cover the cost?

I do agree that if it were a simple "add this simple bit of software for the prosumer enthusiasts" it would be GREAT and it would be a potential selling point for those in the know- but then that would take customers away from the current prosumer market wouldnt it? Right now 24p is sought after by enthusuasts/prosumers- and if it were available on a $1000 camcorder that would take away from their XH sales wouldnt it? Overall a bad business move if you ask me. Keep 24fps in the hands of competent professionals and enthusiasts and you keep the market segmentation strong and easy to design for.
I really have mixed feelings on the subject.
As a filmmaker I think it would ROCK for wanna-be professionals to get their feet wet without drying up their pocketbook-
As a businessman I think it is a BAD MOVE at this point and it would take away from the manufacturer and the professional that is targeted in the prosumer market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharyn Ferrick
I still say that TODAY the person who is going to buy this camcorder is not your version of the brain dead consumer, as the market matures more, possibly, but we are still in the early adopter stage.
Brain dead? No. But definately NOT tech savvy either.
Again- having years of low, mid and high-end electronics experience under my belt I can tell you the market this is targeted at are NOT indie filmmakers- they're the upper-middle class families who can afford a bit more in a camera and like to have nice things- but barely & rarely crack their operation manual. They want point and shoot with a couple moderately simple "advanced" features to brag about- like HD. Look at the design of the camera and you can plainly see that this is who the camera is designed to appeal to. Designed for convenience- not potential entry level professional use-
And the tech savvy consumers (- the "pro-sumers" if you will) are who Canon wants to target with the XH series. YOU DONT WANT TO TAKE AWAY FROM THAT! ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharyn Ferrick
If you want to see something that IS going to drive retailers crazy with returns, just wait till the new Sony AVCHD dvd camcorders get out them and peole try to play the AVCHD mini dvd in their home dvd player...I can already hear the screams...
me too Sharyn... meeeeee tooooo.
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Old August 13th, 2006, 09:45 AM   #27
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Has anyone considered yet that Canon's 24F mode is designed to work with the interlaced signals coming from 3 sensors? Wasn't it established that placing a red filter in front of the XLH1 in 24F mode resulted in reduced resolution? If the software for 24F performs its magic by blending info from all three CCDs, then that same software probably wouldn't be able to work with a single sensor. So just "turning on" that feature in the camera probably would result in a massively degraded image. At least, that's what I'm currently hypothesizing...

We also know that these high pixel count sensors tend to overheat if scanned progressively at 24 or 30 frames per second, which is why JVC went to the split design on their HD100. Now the Canon's sensor is substantially larger at 1920x1080 so its entirely conceivable that the same issue is present. So an honest 24/30P is probably not possible at this time, but they could perhaps take an interlaced scan at 48hz and do some field doubling to achieve a 24F mode. But again, this would be a new piece of software rather than the original 24F version.

Of course I could be WAY off on everything...

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Old August 13th, 2006, 10:23 AM   #28
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Well in the past, you got Frame mode from the Pixel Shift process. In other words, Frame mode was a by-product of Pixel Shift. That was seven years ago. I don't know if it still works that way though. Maybe it does. If so, then this would imply that you can't get Frame mode from a single-sensor camera (since of course there is no such thing as Pixel Shift without multiple image sensors). Playback capability, that's no problem... but for acquisition, maybe Frame mode is limited to three-chip cameras. Interesting theory there.
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Old August 13th, 2006, 06:35 PM   #29
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A 24f upgrade would probably be the best option for Canon. I too would be curious to see a poll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
...but for acquisition, maybe Frame mode is limited to three-chip cameras. Interesting theory there.
Doesn't the Optura XI have a frame mode? That's a 1 chip camera.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Ruddell
These are the same people who came to me insisting they had seen in a store, or had a friend who actually owned an 8mm tape to VHS adapter so they could play their 8mm camcorder tapes in their VCRs. After wasting far to many hours trying to explain to these people that there is no such adapter and you simply cant play an 8mm tape in a standard VCR no matter the adapter
LOL...I used to work at Radioshack when I was 18 and this old man got furious at me for telling him the same exact thing.
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Old August 13th, 2006, 07:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Tony Tibbetts
<snip>Doesn't the Optura XI have a frame mode? <snip>
----------

Nope.
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