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Canon VIXIA Series AVCHD and HDV Camcorders
For VIXIA / LEGRIA Series (HF G, HF S, HF and HV) consumer camcorders.


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Old February 1st, 2007, 10:36 AM   #16
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Fair enough Lee, my problem is I'm a Mac guy. That means capturing live off the sensor block requires either a MacPro or G5 tower with that Intensity card, on set or in a studio. I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing a setup like that with the little HV20 (or HV10 for that matter) sitting there on a tripod.

If that Black Magic card works in a PC laptop and you're capturing to a codec that doesn't require an uncompressed type of bandwidth/storage then it makes more sense (although it still would pose some logistical problems obviously over going to tape)

If what you're thinking is feeding your NLE off tape via HDMI/intensity card to a different codec that's fine, the HDMI signal is probably a little cleaner the current component out on the HV10 and you've got your audio embedded as well (it's still not lossless like FW however I believe).

A clean, digital, uncompressed signal off the sensor sounds very sexy but in reality is impractical to work with. (IMHO)

I'm more excited about the 24p and audio I/O then the HDMI out. They figure out a way to record 720p60 with these little guys and I'll be in heaven.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 11:49 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Dykmans
Fair enough Lee, my problem is I'm a Mac guy. That means capturing live off the sensor block requires either a MacPro or G5 tower with that Intensity card, on set or in a studio. I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing a setup like that with the little HV20 (or HV10 for that matter) sitting there on a tripod.
Which part can you not visualize ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Dykmans
If that Black Magic card works in a PC laptop and you're capturing to a codec that doesn't require an uncompressed type of bandwidth/storage then it makes more sense (although it still would pose some logistical problems obviously over going to tape)
You lost me there !!?

What do you mean by 'a codec that doesn't require an uncompressed type of bandwidth/storage' - sorry my brain is a little slow today !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Dykmans
A clean, digital, uncompressed signal off the sensor sounds very sexy but in reality is impractical to work with. (IMHO)
For me it would not be impractical in any way at all as I tend to work on pieces of 60 seconds and less (FX / Motion Graphics for TV) it would be a major advantage, I am sure there are numerous other people who would love the ability to capture a lightly compressed signal with 33% more resolution that HDV.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 12:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Lee Wilson
I am sure there are numerous other people who would love the ability to capture a lightly compressed signal with 33% more resolution that HDV.
I would! And I can totally imagine an HV20 connected to an injest box on a low-budget green screen stage... at least that's how I would use it. I can not afford a Mac Pro right now (my first choice) but could easily slap together a sub-$500 PC that will at least capture the compressed Intensity video.

I can even imagine putting together a little injest-to-go setup that I could lug around and get HDMI captures as needed. Not all shots would need it but if you knew you were shooting a plate for FX work I think it would be worth the trouble.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 04:54 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Thomas Smet
It is an added bonus for those of us who know how to deal with the pulldown.
25p has no pulldown.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Wilson
If the the Blackmagic Intensity Card captures interlaced or progressively makes no difference to the input signal.
Is it possible to acquire 25p going with the Blackmagic Intensity Card via HDMI?
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Old February 1st, 2007, 05:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathieu Kassovitz
25p has no pulldown.




Is it possible to acquire 25p going with the Blackmagic Intensity Card via HDMI?

Yes I know that. The 50i users are lucky that they do not have to worry about pulldown as well. 24p does have pulldown and thats what us in NTSC land have to deal with. The video still gets encoded as 50i and sent through the intensity card as 50i but the frames really are 25p. Those 25p frames just sit inside of the 50i stream. This is exactly how 30p would work for NTSC users. We however do not get 30p on the HV20 but we do get 24p. 24p is a more complex beast to deal with. You see HDV2 or the 1080i form of HDV must be either 50i or 60i. 24F from the high end cameras move away from this which is why the format only plays from those cameras. All other HDV2 video has to sit in a interlaced stream regardless of how those frame are made up. For NTSC users 60i, 30p and 24p all have to sit in a 60i stream. This is no problem for 60i or 30p. 24p however has to use pulldown to fit inside the 60i. For PAL users you only have 50i and 25p both of which fit with no problem at all in a 50i stream.

Yes the HDMI card will capture 25p exactly like it does any other format. I suggest you check out the specs on the card at www.Decklink.com and find out for yourself what you can do with the card. The card captures 50i which is exactly what the camera will output.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 07:05 PM   #21
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Excellent Solution for HDMI Capture *if* 4:2:2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Dykmans
Fair enough Lee, my problem is I'm a Mac guy. That means capturing live off the sensor block requires either a MacPro or G5 tower with that Intensity card, on set or in a studio. I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing a setup like that with the little HV20 (or HV10 for that matter) sitting there on a tripod.

A clean, digital, uncompressed signal off the sensor sounds very sexy but in reality is impractical to work with. (IMHO)
Rich Dykman, that's your opinion, I respect that. Not a work flow you'd do apparently.

Like Wes, and Lee suggests, I too prefer 1920x1080, and I fully intend to use this camera to capture the HDMI signal! Absolutely. It appears you're assuming that someone that can afford a Mac Pro and a capture card can afford a XH H1 or a high end HD-SDI camera - not at all in my case. I invested in the computer to be a lasting investment (or a minimized liability, depending on how you look at it) and for the film look, if this cam truly can capture 24P, then hell yes, this is ideal. I have the board - pair this with a Cinevate Brevis or a Red Rock M2, add a matte box, rails, a sturdy tripod, and audio directly into the computer at the same time (dual XLR), and wow, that's one powerful setup for filmmaking. The image quality won't be compressed, and the lens on the HV10 isn't important - I get to choose a standard 35mm lens.

My setup isn't a run and gun video production, it's a video village film making production. Assuming the HDMI out isn't hobbled too much (people are forgetting that Sony's HDMI out is 4:2:0!!!!) then this setup is very nice indeed. I can totally see other doing this. The HV20 sounds like a dream - the price really really helps.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 07:20 PM   #22
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My guess is that the 24p would be handled exactly as it is with the bigger Canon cams. Why should they change it? All of the Canon products will be geared to work with 24F, the software is already there. Being Canon is partially using these little HV cams as decks, you can bet it works 24F exactly like its big brothers.
I would also assume the HDMI to be full 1980x1080 being thats what its rez is befor compression. Could be a sweet little studio cam where its low light performance and cheap lens could be catered too.
Definitely a bargain at the price.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 07:43 PM   #23
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Ok guys I surrender (LOL), I remember a pro videographer friend of mine laughing at me when I told him to compare the video from the VX1000 I had just bought to his BetaSP rig so I guess I should know better!

I'm not knocking the HV10 or it's IQ (especially given what it costs) and I cetainly love mine but capturing and editing uncompressed or anything close to it is pretty much the Holy Grail of computer based editing so I'm just having a hard time visualizing anyone doing it with totally consumer based units like these given that it's still a fairly expensive proposition (visualize expensive RAID units and SDI HDCam decks).

But hey it's a new day out there and so I'll stopand quit sounding like a camera snob!
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Old February 1st, 2007, 07:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hodson
I would also assume the HDMI to be full 1980x1080 being thats what its rez is befor compression. Could be a sweet little studio cam where its low light performance and cheap lens could be catered too.
Let's try to keep from assuming - for instance the Sony V1U (a much higher end cam than the HV20) processes it's 1920x1080 footage to 1440x1080 and converts it to 4:2:0 BEFORE it's outputted to HDMI (it just upscales the 4:3 image to 16:9 on output again). So, no matter what, you're getting an image that's been processed! By outputting HDMI on the Sony, all you're doing is bypassing the macro blocks compression that HDV creates. And the Sony is approx $4-5k CDN!

We can *hope* Canon was nice and let the image be, but I could see the marketing department disabling it. Just because the HV10 played nice, doesn't mean the HV20 will. Canon knows they have something good, so it's up to them to decide how much they want a camera with superb image quality to cut into the sales of the XH-A1. If this Camera does 4:2:2 1920x1080 out, then hell no, I'm not going to buy an XH-A1 anymore!
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Old February 1st, 2007, 08:47 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Thomas Smet
I agree that it would have been nice to get a true progresssive encoding but we all must remember that this is a consumer camera. It is designed for the consumer and not for pro's. We should be very happy to even have any type of 24p recording on a camera this cheap. Yes the 24p may be harder for us to pull the true 24p frames from but it can be done and consumers just wouldn't want to do that sort of thing.


Then again the film rate we use now was just the cheapest way to get sound on film. (Beta Vs. VHS just older)That’s why its 24p, correct? The industry now buzzes around it, but the public can change its mind..
The day will come when Broadcasted movies will be digital and there is no need for the 24p look.
It’s just an option at that point.
I like my movies on my computer and think the theater experience can be duplicated in my home.
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Old February 1st, 2007, 09:56 PM   #26
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Then again the film rate we use now was just the cheapest way to get sound on film. (Beta Vs. VHS just older)Thatís why its 24p, correct? The industry now buzzes around it, but the public can change its mind..
The day will come when Broadcasted movies will be digital and there is no need for the 24p look.
Itís just an option at that point.
I like my movies on my computer and think the theater experience can be duplicated in my home.
It is going to be a long time before that happens. As a compositor I can tell you first hand that I would not want to rotoscope and render 60i or 60p. That is a lot of extra wasted work to smooth the motion a little bit. Besides all movies are 24p so 24p will be something we will have to live with for the rest of our lives unless you want to never watch Star Wars ever again. Higher movie framerates have been tried in the past and not only was the cost way too high but it kind of lost that magic cinema look as well. There is nothing wrong with 24p at all and in fact almost all highend TV production in America uses 24p because most of it is shot on film. If 24p was so bad it wouldn't be used for shows like "24".
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Old February 1st, 2007, 09:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Ducon
Let's try to keep from assuming - for instance the Sony V1U (a much higher end cam than the HV20) processes it's 1920x1080 footage to 1440x1080 and converts it to 4:2:0 BEFORE it's outputted to HDMI (it just upscales the 4:3 image to 16:9 on output again). So, no matter what, you're getting an image that's been processed! By outputting HDMI on the Sony, all you're doing is bypassing the macro blocks compression that HDV creates. And the Sony is approx $4-5k CDN!

We can *hope* Canon was nice and let the image be, but I could see the marketing department disabling it. Just because the HV10 played nice, doesn't mean the HV20 will. Canon knows they have something good, so it's up to them to decide how much they want a camera with superb image quality to cut into the sales of the XH-A1. If this Camera does 4:2:2 1920x1080 out, then hell no, I'm not going to buy an XH-A1 anymore!
Who told you the SONY V1U does this?
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Old February 1st, 2007, 10:38 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Thomas Smet
Yes I know that. The 50i users are lucky that they do not have to worry about pulldown as well. 24p does have pulldown and thats what us in NTSC land have to deal with. The video still gets encoded as 50i and sent through the intensity card as 50i but the frames really are 25p. Those 25p frames just sit inside of the 50i stream. This is exactly how 30p would work for NTSC users. We however do not get 30p on the HV20 but we do get 24p. 24p is a more complex beast to deal with. You see HDV2 or the 1080i form of HDV must be either 50i or 60i. 24F from the high end cameras move away from this which is why the format only plays from those cameras. All other HDV2 video has to sit in a interlaced stream regardless of how those frame are made up. For NTSC users 60i, 30p and 24p all have to sit in a 60i stream. This is no problem for 60i or 30p. 24p however has to use pulldown to fit inside the 60i. For PAL users you only have 50i and 25p both of which fit with no problem at all in a 50i stream.

Yes the HDMI card will capture 25p exactly like it does any other format. I suggest you check out the specs on the card at www.Decklink.com and find out for yourself what you can do with the card. The card captures 50i which is exactly what the camera will output.
Merci for your help (I'm not a tech guy).

Then, following this, why can't we have a 25p acquisition into the 50i stream using any other camcorder with HDMI? I mean exclusively 50i (without 25p mode).
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Old February 1st, 2007, 10:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Mathieu Kassovitz
Merci for your help (I'm not a tech guy).

Then, following this, why can't we have a 25p acquisition into the 50i stream using any other camcorder with HDMI? I mean exclusively 50i (without 25p mode).
I mean: That said, why the HV20? And not from other any other 50i offer?

Since the Blackmagic Intensity Card is 1080/50i or 60i (or 720p). The specs don't mention any progressive mode at 1080i (25p, 24p, 30p. . .only 50i and 60i). . .
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Old February 1st, 2007, 10:52 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Wes Vasher
I would! And I can totally imagine an HV20 connected to an injest box on a low-budget green screen stage... at least that's how I would use it. I can not afford a Mac Pro right now (my first choice) but could easily slap together a sub-$500 PC that will at least capture the compressed Intensity video.

I can even imagine putting together a little injest-to-go setup that I could lug around and get HDMI captures as needed. Not all shots would need it but if you knew you were shooting a plate for FX work I think it would be worth the trouble.
Amen ![color=white]
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