Anyone compared the HV20 spec's to the HDR-HC7 spec's? at DVinfo.net

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Canon VIXIA Series AVCHD and HDV Camcorders
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Old February 9th, 2007, 01:07 PM   #1
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Anyone compared the HV20 spec's to the HDR-HC7 spec's?

I was just wondering if anyone has done a side-by-side comparison of the published HV20 spec's to those of the HDR-HC7. I was hoping some of you veteran HD camcorder folks could point out the advantages of each. I'm not sure the Canon forum is the best place to get an unbiased opinion, but I wasn't sure where else to post this question.
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Old February 9th, 2007, 01:17 PM   #2
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Primary difference with Canon is the 24fps capability, giving more film like feel to footage. Sony seems to claim better low light.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 01:41 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos
Primary difference with Canon is the 24fps capability, giving more film like feel to footage. Sony seems to claim better low light.
From the HDR-HC7 spec's:
"Cinematic Mode
Perfect for creating your own movie masterpieces, the HDR-HC7 cinematic mode lends a 24 frame film-like effect to your recordings."

How is this different than what Canon offers?

I just found out that my HDR-HC7 has shipped. The vendor is willing to take it back with no restocking fee as long as the box isn't opened; i.e. I have a chance to to get the HV20 instead if I want. I guess at this point it comes down to comparing spec's since the HV20 won't be available until April. Hmmm, what to do?
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Old February 11th, 2007, 02:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Budworth
From the HDR-HC7 spec's:
"Cinematic Mode
Perfect for creating your own movie masterpieces, the HDR-HC7 cinematic mode lends a 24 frame film-like effect to your recordings."

How is this different than what Canon offers?
This is essentially Sony's Cineframe mode. It nearly halves the resolution and the cadence of the frame rate is completely odd. Do a search on it, that would be able to tell you more than I could. While I haven't seen footage from the Canon. I do know that Sony's "Cinematic Mode" always looks like garbage. Unless they've gone and drastically changed something (which I doubt). From the specs it seems that Canon's mode is true progressive with a 2:3 pulldown.

Compare the predecessors of both companies, the Canon HV10 and the Sony HC3. They are almost the same specs as the upcoming cameras. The footage from the Canon blows the Sony out of the water, add in real 24p and it's not even a competition. The Canon is the clear winner.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 05:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Tibbetts
This is essentially Sony's Cineframe mode. It nearly halves the resolution and the cadence of the frame rate is completely odd. Do a search on it, that would be able to tell you more than I could. While I haven't seen footage from the Canon. I do know that Sony's "Cinematic Mode" always looks like garbage. Unless they've gone and drastically changed something (which I doubt). From the specs it seems that Canon's mode is true progressive with a 2:3 pulldown.
My old Canon has what they call 'Frame' mode, which is pure garbage as far as I am concerned. Sort of pseudo progressive with about 2/3 resolution. Every time I shot in that mode I regretted it later. I learned my lesson. I now shoot in the highest resolution the camera has, and then modify it in post as required.

Thanks for the input... it helps.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 05:45 PM   #6
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I assure you the 24p mode on the HV20 is not a "frame" mode. :) The progressive footage from this camera should look amazing.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 08:50 PM   #7
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The Sony HC7 is a completely different camcorder compared to the HC3. For one thing, it finally gets an optical image stabilizer and the thing that makes this camcorder a lot better than the HV20 is x.v.color.
Quote:
Brilliant Color Equals Brilliant Video

The incorporation of x.v.Color™ technology is also new to the HD Handycam camcorder line in all four new models. Based on the new international xvYCC color standard, Sony x.v.Color supports a much wider data range of colors compared to the conventional sRGB standard.

According to the National Physical Laboratory in the U.K., this wider range is closer to colors that the human eye can recognize.

“x.v.Color-compatible camcorders and displays will have a huge impact on home moviemaking,” said Linda Vuolo, director of camcorder products at Sony Electronics. “They will bring exquisite color reproduction to your home movies like you’ve never seen before.”
http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_ro...ase/27067.html

Even if you cannot afford an HDMI 1.3 complaint HD TV, the colors of the HC7 may still look better on a standard HD TV than the HV20.

The HV20 should have much better auto focusing.

Between the much better colors of the HC7 and the much better auto focusing of the HV20, it’s really a tossup.

Last edited by Paulo Teixeira; February 11th, 2007 at 10:03 PM.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 10:05 PM   #8
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Hi Paulo

Can you explain why you think this new x.v. will look better on a 'standard HD' display. FWIW, I have seen at least one post which indicated a x.v. display would be necessary for the 'better color image'. Are there any other gotchas when it comes the x.v. i.e. NLE's, etc. ?

Tough choices.

Thanks!
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Old February 11th, 2007, 11:27 PM   #9
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The Sony's Cinematic Mode is an emulation of a true progressive image.

The HV20's 24p is a true progressive image.
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Old February 12th, 2007, 11:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Godden
Hi Paulo

Can you explain why you think this new x.v. will look better on a 'standard HD' display. FWIW, I have seen at least one post which indicated a x.v. display would be necessary for the 'better color image'. Are there any other gotchas when it comes the x.v. i.e. NLE's, etc. ?

Tough choices.

Thanks!
JohnG
You do need an HDMI 1.3 complaint TV to get all that extra colors but even on standard mode, the camcorder may still be better than the HV20 but who know, I may also be wrong. We’ll just have to wait until there are proper reviews to be for sure. For now, this feature is of no use to most people but in several years you’ll wish you bought a camcorder with that feature.

On the case of having an HDMI 1.3 complaint screens, I hope they won’t be too expensive this year. The Sony 70” model is a whopping 33 grand. Samsung should come out with smaller, much cheaper versions soon.

I don’t think you need anything extra to edit HDV video with the better color standard and besides if you do, the NLEs will be upgraded.

Last edited by Paulo Teixeira; February 12th, 2007 at 11:54 AM.
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Old February 12th, 2007, 11:33 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Budworth
My old Canon has what they call 'Frame' mode, which is pure garbage as far as I am concerned. Sort of pseudo progressive with about 2/3 resolution. Every time I shot in that mode I regretted it later. I learned my lesson. I now shoot in the highest resolution the camera has, and then modify it in post as required.

Thanks for the input... it helps.
If the footage from your Canon looked bad in "Frame" mode, it's not the cameras fault! You are not loosing 1/3 resolution or anything. You need to learn to shot the lower frame rate, that's it.

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Old February 12th, 2007, 11:49 AM   #12
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Hi Mike, any tips on how to do that?

Anything that helps me learn would be great.

Thanks,

Mike
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Old February 12th, 2007, 01:45 PM   #13
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It is just that that 24f, 24p, or film have to be shot with great attention to movement. Film I think tends to just show blur if there is too much movement and slow shutter speed, which is one desirable thing about film! We have became used to it, and like it.

With video you get motion blur and motion artifacts. You need to learn the limits of motion with 24f or 24p. 30f or 30p is easier to work with, but you still have to watch it.

I am not that good at this part, but more light lets you use faster shutter speeds and I would think that would help with the blur.

When we only had 1080i and 720p, the latter was better for sports, because it was progressive and captured movement better, with each frame being whole. With 1080p that is good too.

I’m not going to say that I know the best work flow for these situations, because I don't. But shoot your 24f or 24p with attention to motion and they will both be great in the end. Canon's 24f is not the problem.

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Old February 12th, 2007, 01:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira
The Sony HC7 is a completely different camcorder compared to the HC3. For one thing, it finally gets an optical image stabilizer and the thing that makes this camcorder a lot better than the HV20 is x.v.color.

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_ro...ase/27067.html

Even if you cannot afford an HDMI 1.3 complaint HD TV, the colors of the HC7 may still look better on a standard HD TV than the HV20.

The HV20 should have much better auto focusing.

Between the much better colors of the HC7 and the much better auto focusing of the HV20, it’s really a tossup.
The only thing I can add is that the HV10 and HV20 (using the same autofocus system) does have better focusing. That's already been proven in the HV10. However the 'deep color' of the Sony cams has yet to demonstrate an improvement. In fact I've read a couple of user reports on the HC5 and there appears to be no reported improvements in color rendition. It is indeed a fact that you must use a display capable of 'deep color' to realize improvements, if any. The whole 'deep color' thing remains unproven at this point. The HDMI group is very good at releasing marketing hype, much of which is not proven and quite exaggerated.

Anyone that owns a plasma or fixed pixel device should look at their 'before & after' pictures of displays with HDMI 1.3 and those without. They're really quite comical since I've never seen a recent display with color banding as bad as they depict on their website for the non-HDMI 1.3 display.

Last edited by Ken Ross; February 12th, 2007 at 05:31 PM.
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Old February 12th, 2007, 03:44 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross
In fact I've read a couple of user reports on the HV5 and there appears to be no reported improvements in color rendition. It is indeed a fact that you must use a display capable of 'deep color' to realize improvements, if any. The whole 'deep color' thing remains unproven at this point. The HDMI group is very good at releasing marketing hype, much of which is not proven and quite exaggerated.
Well, I never said that a standard HD TV will show better colors with x.v.color enabled on the camcorder. It shouldn’t make a difference. What I did say is that the colors of the HC7 may still be better than the HV20 and yes I could be wrong.

Once x.v.color is enabled on the camcorder and hooked up to an HDMI 1.3 complaint HD TV, that’s a different story.



Personally I wouldn’t choose either camcorder and instead, I’d get the JVC HD Everio GZ-HD7.
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