HV20 HDMI Out = 8bit.. chance of 10bit? at DVinfo.net

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Canon VIXIA Series AVCHD and HDV Camcorders
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Old May 20th, 2007, 10:02 PM   #1
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HV20 HDMI Out = 8bit.. chance of 10bit?

I *assume* it's 8bit - anyone been able to verifty if the HV20 is actually outputting 10bit?

If so, a Decklink HD Extreme capturing HD-SDI (from an HDMI to HD-SDI convertor) connected to an HV20 could use 10bit if the camera supported it.

We shouldn't poo-poo this notion unless it's tested - Terence Krueger was the one who put the notion in my head: "...for hdmi, the camera seems from what i can tell to leave the footage at 1920x1080, and convert the colour space to 4:2:2, either 8 or 10 bit, not sure yet..."

I don't think an Intensity could do 10bit, but if the HV20 can do it...

If you have proof either way, please share.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 10:27 PM   #2
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intensity is 8 bit only. the chip they are using is 8 bit only according to the analog devices specs. (ill get the link later)

converting to sdi, assuming the cam is 10 bit, would be a good idea.. but of course, much more expensive. hard to say if theres any bennifit til someone tries though.

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Old May 21st, 2007, 11:27 AM   #3
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I'm pretty sure it's the reason why the card works in a PCI-Express x1 slot. If you look at every other 10 bit HD capture card they always need a PCI-Express x4 slot. The Intensity is the only HD card I know of that will work in a x1 slot and I think that is because it is limited to 8 bit. Not every motherboard has a 4x slot so this is a very good thing or else a lot of people would have to buy new systems just to work with the Intensity card. Pretty much any newer computer from the last 2 years has a x1 slot so it should work well for a lot of people.

Keep in mind that every single HDV camera with SDI at the moment also only pumps out 8 bit so we are not any more limited then any other high quality HD solution right now. As far as I know the only camera under $20,000 that will output 10 bits is the Silicon Imaging camera.
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Old May 21st, 2007, 11:45 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Ducon View Post
I *assume* it's 8bit - anyone been able to verifty if the HV20 is actually outputting 10bit?

If so, a Decklink HD Extreme capturing HD-SDI (from an HDMI to HD-SDI convertor) connected to an HV20 could use 10bit if the camera supported it.

We shouldn't poo-poo this notion unless it's tested - Terence Krueger was the one who put the notion in my head: "...for hdmi, the camera seems from what i can tell to leave the footage at 1920x1080, and convert the colour space to 4:2:2, either 8 or 10 bit, not sure yet..."

I don't think an Intensity could do 10bit, but if the HV20 can do it...

If you have proof either way, please share.
A rather common misconception, but HDMI if used to get material from tape is nothing more than a fire wire connection, just transfer of digital data in the format it has been recorded on tape: 1440 x 1080 in 4:2:0 color space. Intensity may add some digital zeroes to the data stream, but it will NEVER improve the signal, because it has been lost by recording on tape.
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Old May 21st, 2007, 01:19 PM   #5
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I dont think anyone is talking about tape. We're talking about live recording which bypasses compression.

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Old May 23rd, 2007, 01:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harm Millaard View Post
A rather common misconception, but HDMI if used to get material from tape is nothing more than a fire wire connection, just transfer of digital data in the format it has been recorded on tape: 1440 x 1080 in 4:2:0 color space. Intensity may add some digital zeroes to the data stream, but it will NEVER improve the signal, because it has been lost by recording on tape.
I certainly *wasn't* talking about exporting recorded HDV! 4:2:2 UNCOMPRESSED footage. I wouldn't drop $6k on all this equipment just to have a cleaner HDV signal heh.

Recording LIVE camera.

Restating Question: CAN HV20 SHOW 10BIT.

Thomas points out most cameras are 8bit, so, very doubtful that HV20 would do 10bit.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 05:36 PM   #7
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10bit HD video out of the HV20!?

Had to bring this up again in light of other threads - how can we tell if the HV20 outputs 10bit via HDMI?

Anyone know?
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Old July 29th, 2007, 09:30 PM   #8
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I guess you could always use the Cineform Neo HD codec to capture at 1920x1080 from HDMI which converts to 10 bit. Been thinking about buying this myself, even though it's quite expensive at $599. Just waiting to see if Vegas 8 will support 10bit video first though.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 10:07 PM   #9
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But by the same token, I could set my computer to capture to an uncompressed 10 bit codec of my choice - say, Blackmagic Uncompressed 10bit, or ProRes 422 HQ 10bit.

That's not my point though...

Does the HV20 actually OUTPUT 10bit 1080i LIVE footage via HDMI? That is my only question, and has been from the start.
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Old July 31st, 2007, 10:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harm Millaard View Post
A rather common misconception, but HDMI if used to get material from tape is nothing more than a fire wire connection, just transfer of digital data in the format it has been recorded on tape: 1440 x 1080 in 4:2:0 color space. Intensity may add some digital zeroes to the data stream, but it will NEVER improve the signal, because it has been lost by recording on tape.
I hate to go further off topic, but one improvement you might get is if the camera can output straight 24fps video rather than 60i with pull-down, then capturing using HDMI would be an advantage rather than capturing through Firewire and then use some other means to remove the extra fields.

Then there's the live aspect. I'm doubting that HV10 outputs 10 bit live, but I have nothing to back that up.
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Old August 1st, 2007, 09:17 AM   #11
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This has been an interesting read so far because I spoke with Canon directly and was told that if you go out the FW port you are ingesting HDV. However, you will get a higher resolution and thus a better picture if you go out the HDMI port (they seemed to imply it would be a much better image), even if you are recording to MiniDV tapes (not real-time without a tape). Is this not true?
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Old August 1st, 2007, 01:38 PM   #12
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The bandwidth of the HDMI signal is much higher than the FW cable signal (which can only be HDV). However, whatever you record to tape, because it's digital, will be the same over HDMI or FW (FireWire) - the HDV signal will MAX out the FW port, and when played over the HDMI port, it'll be the same (since it's digital) but won't be filling the bandwidth of what's capable. So no, I don't see how the quality of the image would suddenly increase when being played off tape and captured via the HDMI port instead of the FW port.

Canon assumes 99% of the people purchasing the HV20 are consumers that'll record to tape and playback over the various mediums - i.e. using the HDMI port to view their home movies on their nice new HDTV.

Since HDMI can show the true signal that the camera is seeing before it's compressed to the HDV spec, if one captures the raw LIVE image (without being in playback mode), the quality will be much higher. Using an Intensity card, or and HDMI - HD-SDI option, one can then choose a much higher end codec to 'save' the video as.

Most codec options people use today are 8-bit. I'm curious if the camera can actually output 10-bit (because the HDMI port has the bandwidth for it).

So far, no one has evidence that it can do 10-bit.
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 08:45 AM   #13
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Whats specs is the HDMI port on the camera? HDMI 1.2 will be 8 bit only with some 10 bit processing of that 8 bit color. Only the newer HDMI 1.3 moved into true 10 bit color.

The thing about 10 bit is that in order to have true 10 bit you have to keep 10 bits all the way through the process. First the DSP in the camera needs to process the data from the chip as 10 bit or higher. Next that 10 bits would need to be pumped to the HDMI port. Now the HDMI port itself would have to support 10 bit color. Finally the capture card would have to support 10 bit color.

The Intensity card is strictly a 8 bit card so regardless of what the camera is doing it doesn't really matter. If it was sending 10 bits it would only get captured as 8 bit anyway. Even if we did have a HDMI 1.3 capture card that would capture 10 bit color there are a lot of things that would have to be true in the camera for it to put out true 10 bit color.

So my answer is I do not know but it doesn't matter at all unless somebody comes out with a HDMI 1.3 capture device for 10 bit color. I'm not even sure how anybody could figure it out outside of the engineers from Canon.
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 01:17 PM   #14
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i mostly use the hv20 as deck and backup for the A1, but I can tell you with certainty that the live image out from the HDMI port is more vibrant and cleaner than its tape counterpart. i'm just not going to drag around or be tethered to an entire computer system to achieve this marginal difference.
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 05:22 PM   #15
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I own a 10 bit capable capture setup - a Decklink HD Extreme with HD-SDI and a nanoConnect HDMI to HD-SDI convertor. I'm pretty sure the nanoConnect is 10bit too - could be wrong. Maybe I'm the only one that'll be able to tell then since I have a rare hardware setup (the Intensity and Intensity Pro didn't exist when I bought my Blackmagic Design card).

It's unlikely yes. But that said, how do I check? My HV20 is being replaced/repaired under warrenty for now, but I *will* do a Proress 422 HQ 10bit capture.

Once captured, what do I do to tell?
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