Canon XA10

Noa Put · June 19th, 2012, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Noa, you're XH-A1, as you know, cannot compare to any of these cameras in low light. The XH-A1 was, in my mind, never good in low light even when it was new.

yes I know, 6db gain is often necessary, even in churches that are not that dark and higher up was unusable for my standards, I even found 6db not good, but like I stated the730 has cleaner footage at 21db gain then the xh-a1 at 6db, therefore it seems that Buba's 760 performs differently?

I have done side by side tests with my 550d this weekend at a wedding and 24db gain was comparable with 3200 iso on a 1.4 lens and had less grain. I would be very happy to shoot at 21db gain and if I need the shot at 24db gain, it looks better then any camera I have owned before.

Quote:

XA10 footage is beautiful at 18db. Virtually no noise.

I was thinking about getting the xa10 as a second camera but have to be sure how it will match with the small sony's, it's listed here at a very good pricepoint, about 800 euro's cheaper then the sony nx30 and for that price difference I"m willing to trade in the wideangle benefits..

D.J. Ammons · June 28th, 2012, 09:19 PM

We are seriously considering an XA10 to use along with our Sony V1's and Canon HV20 we currently have in our Wedding and Event videography. We have experience already color correcting the Canon HV20 to match the Sony V1 look so I don't think that will be a problem for us.

We love the Sony V1's even though tape is nearing the end so we think an XA10 will be a great cam to use for receptions. No more changing tapes as long as we have a big enough SD card and the XA10 will be very light in a steadicam setup.

Reading this thread has encouraged me that the XA10 will be a good fit. I think the prejudice people had in the past against smaller cameras is going away as people realize what a great job a lot of small camera's can do with today's technology.

Jeff Harper · June 29th, 2012, 05:33 AM

Be forewared: If you buy an XA10 you will like the images, but you will never be happy with your V1 again. A 1/4" inch CCD chip from the old V1 cannot compare to the newer Canon CMOS sensor in the XA10. There is absolutely no comparison between the cameras you are using and the XA10.

Your newer footage will be tricky to match. The quality of the images from you XA10 will make the rest of your footage look relatively poor. The XA10 has a learning curve, but not much. Using the exposure wheel is a cinch once you get used to it. Good luck D.J.

I suspect that, eventually, you will want to buy a G10 to match up with your XA10.

D.J. Ammons · July 1st, 2012, 07:12 PM

Jeff, I hear what you are saying but doesn't the fact that the V1 is a 3 chip camera and the XA10 just one help the V1 in a comparison? I know they have made great advances in CMOS technology and that is the only reason I am considering a one chip camera but I am surprised you think it will be that much better than a V1.

Noa Put · July 2nd, 2012, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

A 1/4" inch CCD chip from the old V1 cannot compare to the newer Canon CMOS sensor in the XA10.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the HVR V1 has 3 ClearVid CMOS sensors according to what I found on the Sony site.

D.J.: Where you will notice the most difference between your V1 and the XA10 is that the image will be a bit sharper and the low light capability will be much better, only how both camera's will match colorwise I don't know. I do have a (hdv) xh-a1 and a recently purchased cx730 and all I can say it's amazing what comes out of today's small handicams, imagewise it performs better in any area compared to my xh-a1, only my xh-a1 seem to have a better dynamic range, but have not done any actual tests.

Biggest difference ofcourse is lack of real manual control but that you know if you work with a hv20.

Don Palomaki · July 3rd, 2012, 06:14 AM

Over time technology advances, both in sensors and in digital signal processing. The curent 1/4" sensor is better than the 1/2" of the 1990s. However, there are other differnces such as DOF, lenses and recording formats and media that introduce artifacts.

What counts is what the client/customer thinks when they see the final product. It may be poor form a technical standpoint, and a very poor representation of reality, but if it looks pretty to their eyes they are happy.

Jeff Harper · July 3rd, 2012, 06:34 AM

D.J., yes I have edited images from both cams shot in similar conditions, and the V1 is not in even close tot he same league image wise. As Don says it's the customer that matters, but the V1 was the single worst camera I ever had the misfortune to use at a wedding. In low light it was just beyond terrible. You will love the XA10, at least you'll like it's images. You'll miss the manual controls but that's about it.

Single sensors are said to have better dynamic range than three chip cameras, but I don't know if it's true.

Like I said earlier, your V1 will become an issue in low light because you will not be able to match the cameras easily at all, the XA10 will make the V1 footage look pretty bad. The V1 looked pretty rough to me compared to the Z1 back in the day, and that was a couple years ago. I can't imagine it next to the XA10.

Noa Put · July 3rd, 2012, 09:06 AM

Quote:

but the V1 was the single worst camera I ever had the misfortune to use at a wedding

Was the z1 not the pro version of the fx1? I have edited some fx1 footage that was used at a wedding where I was filming with my xh-a1. From what I remember the fx1 did produce very nice and warm colors and was not easy to match to my xh-a1 as there was quite some difference colorwise. But Like you said, low light sucks on these first gen hdv camera's but beside that, I thought the image was very good in good light.

Jeff Harper · July 3rd, 2012, 09:31 AM

Yes Noa, the Z1 was/is fine, I'm talking about the V1 which has the 1/4" sensors. The Z1 (FX1) chips are 1/3" and much better. If I'm mixed up and creating confusion here I do apologize. when I mentioned the Z1 earlier I was implying that it was superior to the V1.

Noa Put · July 3rd, 2012, 10:00 AM

Oh, now I see I"m mixing up camera's :) allthough I don't have any experience with these first generation 1/4th inch hdv camera I can imagine that the difference with the current xa10 will be even bigger. I was first thinking of the fx1 but like you said it's another size sensor.

Jeff Harper · July 3rd, 2012, 10:27 AM

You're right, the difference is significant. I edited a wedding shot by a shooter who did not tell me he had lost his Z1, and so he used a V1 without telling me, and oh my god it was so bad in the church. Granted, no camera looked good in this church, it was so dark, but the V1 was really not up to the challenge.

D.J. Ammons · July 25th, 2012, 08:22 PM

I pulled the trigger today and ordered one XA10. We will use it for our fixed wide shot cam in weddings (in place of our trusty Canon HV20) and then use it for the reception coverage. Since the recpetions typically have more than one hour of raw footage we look forward to not having to worry about changing tape every hour of footage.

If I like it well enough I will get a second one and use both of them for the ceremony in place of my two Sony V!U's.

Jeff Harper · July 27th, 2012, 05:43 AM

D.J. you'll be very happy, but there will be a slight learning curve with the camera.

Out of the box, to operate, put the power switch slide on M. Now the camera is on and you can use the white balance settings, etc. which are found in the onscreen menu.

Then be aware on the left of the LCD is a button for Manual focus which can be turned off and on at anytime during filming.

On the left rear of the cam is an annoyingly small button which activates the exposure wheel adjacent to it that permits adjusting exposure on the fly.

Basically you are now ready to shoot a wedding.

Other than going into the menu to change your shooting mode such as 24p or 60i, and setting your white balance you're good to go.

Oh, you'll also have to select whether to record onto the internal memory or onto a card, or both. Personally I now use the internal memory. No cards, no muss no fuss. 64GB is plenty of space for any wedding.

Re: the exposure, use it conservatively. Things that do not appear blown out can be. I don't use the zebra, but have learned what is about right through trial and error.

After getting the hang of the silly exposure wheel, etc I have found the camera to be perfect for the money. It is fiddly due to it's size, but it really shoots great video, and the audio from it is awesome.

Noa Put · July 27th, 2012, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Re: the exposure, use it conservatively. Things that do not appear blown out can be. I don't use the zebra, but have learned what is about right through trial and error.

That's why you always should use zebra"s as it identifies problem area's when you over expose. I have the zebra's turned on always on my small handicam since I got it and I operate exposure manually all the time now, it saves you from going through trial and error. :)

Jeff Harper · July 27th, 2012, 06:03 AM

Noa, zebra is nice, but I set exposure for the face normally, which will often blow out areas. In these cases the zebra is an annoyance, because I'm aware those areas are going to be blown out.

I know what I need to focus on in my shooting and what needs properly exposed, the camera does not, hence the zebra just adds confusion to the mix for me.

June 28th, 2012, 09:19 PM	#32
D.J. Ammons Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 506	Re: Canon XA10 We are seriously considering an XA10 to use along with our Sony V1's and Canon HV20 we currently have in our Wedding and Event videography. We have experience already color correcting the Canon HV20 to match the Sony V1 look so I don't think that will be a problem for us. We love the Sony V1's even though tape is nearing the end so we think an XA10 will be a great cam to use for receptions. No more changing tapes as long as we have a big enough SD card and the XA10 will be very light in a steadicam setup. Reading this thread has encouraged me that the XA10 will be a good fit. I think the prejudice people had in the past against smaller cameras is going away as people realize what a great job a lot of small camera's can do with today's technology.

June 29th, 2012, 05:33 AM	#33
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Canon XA10 Be forewared: If you buy an XA10 you will like the images, but you will never be happy with your V1 again. A 1/4" inch CCD chip from the old V1 cannot compare to the newer Canon CMOS sensor in the XA10. There is absolutely no comparison between the cameras you are using and the XA10. Your newer footage will be tricky to match. The quality of the images from you XA10 will make the rest of your footage look relatively poor. The XA10 has a learning curve, but not much. Using the exposure wheel is a cinch once you get used to it. Good luck D.J. I suspect that, eventually, you will want to buy a G10 to match up with your XA10.

July 1st, 2012, 07:12 PM	#34
D.J. Ammons Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 506	Re: Canon XA10 Jeff, I hear what you are saying but doesn't the fact that the V1 is a 3 chip camera and the XA10 just one help the V1 in a comparison? I know they have made great advances in CMOS technology and that is the only reason I am considering a one chip camera but I am surprised you think it will be that much better than a V1.

July 3rd, 2012, 06:14 AM	#36
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Re: Canon XA10 Over time technology advances, both in sensors and in digital signal processing. The curent 1/4" sensor is better than the 1/2" of the 1990s. However, there are other differnces such as DOF, lenses and recording formats and media that introduce artifacts. What counts is what the client/customer thinks when they see the final product. It may be poor form a technical standpoint, and a very poor representation of reality, but if it looks pretty to their eyes they are happy. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

July 3rd, 2012, 06:34 AM	#37
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Canon XA10 D.J., yes I have edited images from both cams shot in similar conditions, and the V1 is not in even close tot he same league image wise. As Don says it's the customer that matters, but the V1 was the single worst camera I ever had the misfortune to use at a wedding. In low light it was just beyond terrible. You will love the XA10, at least you'll like it's images. You'll miss the manual controls but that's about it. Single sensors are said to have better dynamic range than three chip cameras, but I don't know if it's true. Like I said earlier, your V1 will become an issue in low light because you will not be able to match the cameras easily at all, the XA10 will make the V1 footage look pretty bad. The V1 looked pretty rough to me compared to the Z1 back in the day, and that was a couple years ago. I can't imagine it next to the XA10.

July 3rd, 2012, 09:31 AM	#39
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Canon XA10 Yes Noa, the Z1 was/is fine, I'm talking about the V1 which has the 1/4" sensors. The Z1 (FX1) chips are 1/3" and much better. If I'm mixed up and creating confusion here I do apologize. when I mentioned the Z1 earlier I was implying that it was superior to the V1.

July 3rd, 2012, 10:00 AM	#40
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Canon XA10 Oh, now I see I"m mixing up camera's :) allthough I don't have any experience with these first generation 1/4th inch hdv camera I can imagine that the difference with the current xa10 will be even bigger. I was first thinking of the fx1 but like you said it's another size sensor.

July 3rd, 2012, 10:27 AM	#41
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Canon XA10 You're right, the difference is significant. I edited a wedding shot by a shooter who did not tell me he had lost his Z1, and so he used a V1 without telling me, and oh my god it was so bad in the church. Granted, no camera looked good in this church, it was so dark, but the V1 was really not up to the challenge.

July 25th, 2012, 08:22 PM	#42
D.J. Ammons Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 506	Re: Canon XA10 I pulled the trigger today and ordered one XA10. We will use it for our fixed wide shot cam in weddings (in place of our trusty Canon HV20) and then use it for the reception coverage. Since the recpetions typically have more than one hour of raw footage we look forward to not having to worry about changing tape every hour of footage. If I like it well enough I will get a second one and use both of them for the ceremony in place of my two Sony V!U's.

July 27th, 2012, 05:43 AM	#43
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Canon XA10 D.J. you'll be very happy, but there will be a slight learning curve with the camera. Out of the box, to operate, put the power switch slide on M. Now the camera is on and you can use the white balance settings, etc. which are found in the onscreen menu. Then be aware on the left of the LCD is a button for Manual focus which can be turned off and on at anytime during filming. On the left rear of the cam is an annoyingly small button which activates the exposure wheel adjacent to it that permits adjusting exposure on the fly. Basically you are now ready to shoot a wedding. Other than going into the menu to change your shooting mode such as 24p or 60i, and setting your white balance you're good to go. Oh, you'll also have to select whether to record onto the internal memory or onto a card, or both. Personally I now use the internal memory. No cards, no muss no fuss. 64GB is plenty of space for any wedding. Re: the exposure, use it conservatively. Things that do not appear blown out can be. I don't use the zebra, but have learned what is about right through trial and error. After getting the hang of the silly exposure wheel, etc I have found the camera to be perfect for the money. It is fiddly due to it's size, but it really shoots great video, and the audio from it is awesome.

July 27th, 2012, 06:03 AM	#45
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Canon XA10 Noa, zebra is nice, but I set exposure for the face normally, which will often blow out areas. In these cases the zebra is an annoyance, because I'm aware those areas are going to be blown out. I know what I need to focus on in my shooting and what needs properly exposed, the camera does not, hence the zebra just adds confusion to the mix for me.