Canon XA10
 

Can anyone tell me if the Canon XA10 is any good at shooting weddings?

Thanks, Gary

Re: Canon XA10
 

I don't do weddings but One of the Jeff's here does and uses his 10.

My concern would be the lack of real buttons and switches. Things change fast at weddings.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Best to read the several related threads on the XA10 and weddings here for a variety of opinions and experiences.

In my opinion it works for weddings, but how well depends on what you try to do with it and whether or not you learn its capabilities and limitations before you use it on a for-money shoot, what your expectations are, and of course what you have been using. (I have mainly used it as a second camcorder, usually locked down and untended.)

Re: Canon XA10
 

The XA10 does have an exposure wheel, which allows you to lock the exposure or set the exposure as you see fit, which is the main button you need for weddings, IMO.

There is also a MF/AF button on the screen, making it a cinch to go manual focus as needed.

You cannot change white balance on the fly, sadly, but if you can get by with the above buttons, you'd be good to go for weddings, I would think.

I like mine for weddings very much. Have two and will likely get a third.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Mark me down as a xa 10 supporter for weddings as well. I have had mine for about a month and love it. The last 2 years I have shot weddings with canon dslr's. I still shoot with dslr but now have the xa 10 in the mix as well. Let me tell you as far as the ceremony, it is great to have continuous autofocus, and servo zoom as well. While the depth of field and the low light can't beat a dslr, it is still above average in those areas. It also has features that make shooting a wedding much more easier and less stressful.

Like Jeff said, it has a custom button where you can control shutter, gain, aperture. It as has a button to switch from auto focus to manual quickly (with the use of the silky smooth focus ring). If you use an external xlr shotgun mic, you can control the audio from the dials. So basically you can control almost everything from outside. The only important thing you can't control is the white balance. The best thing in this situation is if you are going to be in a controlled environment then select a custom kelvin temperature and lock it in. If your scene is going to change quickly or unexpectedly then keep it on auto. The camera does a decent job with balancing that.

I actually think I'm going to buy another and get rid of my 3rd dslr. I'll then have 2 xa 10 and 2 dslr, which will make me a lot more vertile for long format gigs and events other than weddings.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Keith, I love my 2 XA10 and 2 DSLR combo, it's fantabulous. I'd like a third XA10, but for now 2+2 work out great.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Yea , I really like the xa 10. Outside of weddings, I think as a professional videographer who shoots other events its really does help to have a mix of cameras. I shoot all my prep and reception stuff with the canon t3i and 5D. I shoot the ceremony with those and the xa 10. Its better to have the xa 10 for tracking shots though. Instant continuous autofocus is great to have when the bride and wedding party are walking down the isle. Using dslr's for this is a big risk. I have shot a lot of weddings and have gotten pretty good but its still not an exact science and if you ever so slightly turn the focus ring too fast, there goes your shot of the bride and her dad. For this the autofocus of the xa 10 is alot better and quicker.

My only problem with the xa 10 has been workflow issues. Keep in mind that it is AVCHD, which to me is still not the best format to edit in. I use Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5/CS6. It can edit without transcoding but its not as smooth as my mov files from the t3i and 5d. They also have created nightmare for me with Plural eyes. The mts files that are created by the xa 10 can not be read by plural eyes natively, which helps sync a multi cam edit. So I tried rewrapping them as mov files. It works and plural eyes can sync the audio, but when the sequence is reimported back to premiere, premiere freezes when trying to playback the new mov files. It has been very frustrating the last two weeks and as of now I still dont have a solution. For now I just have to sync multi-cam edits manually, which can be a drag.

So if your not using plural eyes to sync up multi cam edits or if your not rewrapping the footage and reimporting back to premiere, the workflow should be fairly easy then.

Also it is a small camera, which nowadays doesn't really matter as much. I was somewhat bothered by the fact that its so small but when it sits next to my dslr with a non telephoto lens, they are very comparable. Also, of course you can always throw a shotgun mic on it to help with the size too.

Overall I do like it, especially for weddings and honestly I think for the money its the best value on the market.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Keith, I solve the sync problem by not using GH2 footage that requires syncing.

The problem with the EXPOSURE WHEEL AND BUTTON, is that they are so small they are hard for me to feel. I have to hunt for them.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Guys, my XA10 and GH2 footage all sync perfectly well together using Plural eyes, and so does my Zoom H1 audio. I personally have never had an issue syncing any of my four cameras. I've heard Premier does have some issues using Plural Eyes, fortunately Vegas uses it perfectly for me. I don't think the issue is camera related, but it instead is seems to me to be a a Premier issue.

Re: Canon XA10
 

I thought it was Plural eyes Jeff.

Re: Canon XA10
 

I don't know which it is, Don, it's one or the other for sure. There is a new version of Plural Eyes coming hopefully it will address this issue.

I notice that in the troubleshooting section of the Plural Eyes website there is a list of issues listed for PP as well as Final Cut. Bummer.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Hey Jeff, don't you transcode the footage before you sync it though? If not, your version of Plural Eyes syncs mts files natively? When I try to sync them natively, I receive an error message saying that it cannot recognize the file.

I'm really trying not to add that back into my process. Let me make this clear premiere cs6 can edit the native AVCHD files from xa 10. I can successfully rewrap the files and sync them in Plural Eyes, however once the clips are rewrapped and in sync, premiere cannot play the files back. It could possibly be a Clip Wrap issue, as thats what I'm using to rewrap the files. Not for sure what it is, but hopefully I will figure it out soon. As manually syncing goes, its for the birds, especially when I've been using Plural Eyes for the last year +.

Re: Canon XA10
 

No Keith, I do not do anything to the footage, works as is. Go to the Plural Eyes site and check out the section on PP troubleshooting, I think I recall your issue being discussed, but I could be wrong. There might be a workaround.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Count me in as another voice in favor of the XA10 for weddings! I have two of them and two HF G10's as well and love them all! I generally shoot DSLR for pre-ceremony and late reception (open dancing) when the sound doesn't matter as much and/or I want shallow DOF for details shots, but in the middle during ceremony and the more formal stuff early in receptions it can't be beat for ease and overall utility. The small size allows me and my employees to be discrete while filming AND cuts down tremendously on how many bags of gear we have to lug around, the low light capability is very good for a 1/3" chip, its images are razor sharp, the autofocus and powered zoom are godsends during processional/recessional, the dual-card recording is awesome for insuring against card failures, and the XLR audio controls are of course one million times better than any DSLR's weak attempt at audio. So all in a all a great tool for the wedding environment! My biggest complaint is with the white balance... why couldn't they allow it to be changed on the fly as with previous Canon pro camcorders, and why couldn't it have been a small button/switch somewhere on the exterior of camera body? Otherwise, it's a great choice for wedding work... which is literally all my company films BTW, so I was careful and specific as to what gear I chose and the XA10 was it. In terms of performance and value for the money they're pretty tough to beat and I've happily shot 40+ weddings with them so far and never looked back! =)

Re: Canon XA10
 

I don't have a xa10 but use similar small sized camera's, I use a sony xr520 and just today got me a sony cx730 because there's a cashback option and I got the last one a store had in stock at a reduced price as well :) The sony 730 I primarily got because of it's 26mm wide angle lens.

The only thing what's not so good on any palmsize camera is controll, it will never be the same as a larger camera like my aging Canon xh-a1, there you have all controls where you need them to be, quickly accessible giving you instant controll over your image in run and gun situations. You can change your shutter, iris, focus instantly, select ND's to keep your iris at any desired value, make 2 custom white balances, you can dial in custom image presets to maybe give richer colors, or make it look a bit more cinematic and so on.

These palm size camera's will give you a bit controll, usually just enough to get the job done but I"m sure the xa10 will be no different then the sony cx730 I got; it's absolutely amazing what these tiny camera's can do. My Sony slaps my xh-a1 all over the place when it comes to low light sensitivity, you can easily push 21db gain and have virtually no grain, 21db...and at those gain value the colour is still vibrant. The zoom is butter smooth, the image is sharper, the image stabilisation is better as well, the lens goes much, much wider which is what you really need in tight spots at weddings and in case of the audio, with the xa10 you also have xlr audio, what more would you ask for? Well, more control :)

I film a few dance-recitals every year, this year I exclusively used a sony xr500 and 520 for it and the results where great, better then what my xh-a1 could do (mainly because of it low light issues) The client was happy which makes those small handicams a great investment.

I"ve been looking at the xa10 as well and might get one, mainly because of the xlr (and ofcourse because it"s a great small camera and I have seen tests where it outdoes the sony cx760 in low light, I mean, you have got to be kidding right? :D)) You can easily shoot a wedding and make it look great, sharp images, great color, combine it with a dslr and you can label your weddingpackages; "cinematic".

I was planning to buy another "bigger" camera this year as well to replace my xh-a1 but I am seriously thinking about going for a smaller factor camera but with a bit more control, like a nx70 type of thing, not so sure what I will do. I like the portability, just the fact that you can fit all these small camera's in one bag and use 3 or 4 during a ceremony (instead of buying one big, very expensive camera and don't have the cash for a second small one :))

I think these are really exiting times when you are a filmmaker, so many choices and so great quality out of these small camera's.

Edit: I just found out my cx730 has a build in videolight, it get's better all the time :) I will put that thing on my blackbird steadicam for the next first dance I film, when they turn the lights real low, I"ll have a nice wideangle perfectly exposed shot. I just saw it looks to have the same sensitivity as my canon 550d with a 14mm f2.8 at 3200 iso and that alone is amazing.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Noa, I just took a look at some footage done with the Sony, and based on what I saw it appears it destroys the XA10 in low light. Is that the case, do you know?

Re: Canon XA10
 

I just had a look at the video I saw and it appears it was a different Canon model, but does this one not have the same mechanics as the xa-10?

Here was that video:

Re: Canon XA10
 

Thanks Noa, very good test video, thanks for sharing.

Obviously the Sony does not destroy the Canon, and yes you are right, the Canon G10 and XA10 are very similar cameras, XA10 supposedly somewhat superior due to something or other, either lens or electronics, I don't know which.

Re: Canon XA10
 

What's the highest selectable gain on the Canon xa10?

Re: Canon XA10
 

24 is the highest, Noa.

Re: Canon XA10
 

I just wonder why in the video "only" 15db gain was selected, from the first tests I just did I get usuable footage up to 24db gain, might need a little neat video touch but it was cleaner that the max gain on my xr520 where the noise showed more, both the 520 and the 730 seemed to have the same sensitivity, only the 730 was cleaner at very high gain values.

I made some comparison footage just now in my edit room with all lights out and just the light from 1 lcd screen and the cx730 outperformed my 550d/14mm f2.8 lens by quite a margin, now I see I needed to go up to 6400 iso to get the same exposure (not exactly the same, it was still darker) but with very visible grain. Even with my 35mm f1.4 I had to select 3200 iso (with a shutter of 1/50) I also think the cx730 goes to 1/25th shutter with low lux activated which is for 24db gain.
I must get some real life footage soon, will be doing a wedding friday and saturday, very curious how it will turn out.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Good luck getting ready, it's always stressful when you're figuring out gear.

Re: Canon XA10
 

It works about the same as my xr520, only the menu options are laid out differently so it shouldn't be that hard :) (knocks on wood)

Re: Canon XA10
 

To come back to the topic starters question if a xa10 (or I guess any recent build "high end" little handicam type of camera) could be used for weddings, I just finished 2 weddings in a row and to be honest, I"m flabbergasted about the potential from that little sony cx730 I used.

I have been using a second hand xr520 before which I only used in church to point stationary at the priest, I found it's 40mm wideangle very limiting and the iris did not change smoothly if you turned that small dial to adjust exposure which made it useless in run and gun. I did notice it was very light sensitive with clean gain up to 21db but quite grainy at 24db. The colours where a bit harsh in bright sunlight and the image too contrasty for my taste. My second main camera has been the xh-a1 for the past 4 years.

I went on a test shoot one day after I got the cx730 and one day before I had to do those weddings and was surprised about the image, colors where more neutral making it easier to grade in post and the dynamic range was also impressive, the sun was shining and the camera managed to give a balanced image in dark and bright area's. The image stabilisation was so good it almost felt like being on a tripod, the autofocus was very good and the images where very sharp.

I actually was so confident (maybe too much but life is all about taking risks now and then :)) that I decided to use it the next day at a Chinese wedding as my main camera so my xh-a1 stayed in the bag.

The Chinese wedding started with these typical door games where the groom had to carry out different tasks, I knew there would be very little space and I knew it was going to be chaotic, well the small Sony was a delight to use in these run and gun situation, the 26mm wide angle was superb, focus was spot on all the time (there was sufficient indoor light) and the active steadyshot feature was awesome, I was just holding the camera in front of me with 2 hands, sometimes just one and each shot looks like I"m pressing it firmly against my shoulder and holding my breath to keep it steady :).
I managed to capture all the action, holding the camera up high, low, I locked the exposure, set the zebra's so I could assure correct exposure and I got footage I never, ever could have gotten with my xh-a1.

Same applied for the tea ceremonies that followed where I used my dslr as well for some more creative shots as there was more time and space, after that I used my dslr and steadicam exclusively since I only had to stay until the reception so it was mainly creative footage

When I got home and viewed the footage I couldn't be more that happy, the images looked very good, better then what my xh-a1 produces, colors where very nice as well, not overly saturated like the xr520 but with enough room to make them "pop" more.

So, I got even more confident and used it at a typical Belgian Catholic wedding the day after and used the camera as my main camera, together with the xr520 which was pointed at the priest and left my xh-a1 in the bag again, I must say I felt rather silly holding that small thing when they did the vows, in Belgium you need to come up close to get all the action, but because it's so light and the footage seemed very steady, colourful and bright I just ignored people that might look at me. :)

In the evening when it got dark I only got confirmed what I noticed on tests I did the first day I got the camera. that little wonder rivals my Canon 550d with a 35mm f1.4 at 1600 iso, I couldn't believe my eyes, when I switched on low lux mode (it uses 1/25th shutter in that case) I had to select 3200 iso on the canon to keep up. I just have viewed that footage from yesterday and the 1/25th shutter is perfectly usable AND you can hardly see any grain while my canon at 3200 needs neat video.

There where some long speeches with the lights dimmed very low and I saw it on the viewfinder and looking at it on my screen now, it looks like the place is much brighter with lots of detail and color, my canon dslr with a 14mm f2.8 was already not usable at that point. The wideangle was a joy to use in these circumstances, finally I was able to get a lot more people on a table in one frame, even if I had no room to move back.

One word of caution which i think will be a problem with any small sensor camera, the auto focus was that good in good light conditions I did not have to worry about it, it was spot on all the time, but when lights went really low, the camera would loose focus occasionally and if it did it could not recover and stayed blurry, the camera did have 3 assignable buttons in the lcd screen (think the xa10 has this to?) which makes it "somewhat" easy to quickly switch to manual focus where the camera automatically zooms in (WHILE you are recording) or you can even use red or other color peaking or you can just use that small dial on front to select focus.

So to answer the question from the topic starter; yes, you certainly can use small handicams for paid weddings, in my case it has outdone my xh-a1 in almost every area, expect for control which has been mentioned before.

I was planning to buy another camera this year but now seriously considering the nx70 instead of a panasonic ag ac130 which I first had in mind, that combined with a cx730 and my 2 dlsr's/lenzes should fit nicely in one instead of 2 bags now so mobility will improve a lot. My dslr's are my creative workhorses and the 2 small sonys should fill in the rest, in church f.i. the couple wants to see who's behind them, there I don't care for shallow dof, just pinsharp, stable and colourful shots and clear audio but for that I use external recorders.

I just have to go back and look at my footage again, it sure gives a good feeling when it looks so good. :D

Re: Canon XA10
 

Instead of saying I might as well show a wedding I did last weekend with only 2 small handicams and a dslr (a sony xr520 and a cx730 and a 550d with a 14mm f2.8 and a 35mm f1.4) proving that it is possible to do a wedding with such small camcorders and make it look good enough to sell to your client. there is one shot of the ceremony with the canon xh-a1 (at 01:34) that was used as 3rd camera, but mainly as a safety angle on the backside of the ceremony.

All steadicam, slider and very shallow dof shots are done with the dslr but the shots from the ceremony where you see the grooms face is done with a cx730 and where you see the face of the bride with a xr520.
Also the doorgames at beginning and end are done with the cx730 handheld. I only regret that there was so much wind that messed up my sound a bit.

The footage has been colour corrected, the bride wanted the colours to "pop" :)

Re: Canon XA10
 

because to my eye shots over 15db from CX760 are not usable, but that's me :)

Re: Canon XA10
 

24db gain on my cx730 has less visible grain then 6db on my canon xh-a1 and I have been shooting at 6db gain with my Canon a lot, even in churches that are not that dark.... I think why the test was not done above 15db gain is that the Canon xf10 becomes much noisier?

Re: Canon XA10
 

No Noa, i shot that video, and I am telling you, to my eye after 15db Sony's footage wasn't usable, and again, to my eye 18db on HF G10 is acceptable, but just acceptable.

Re: Canon XA10
 

XA10 footage is beautiful at 18db. Virtually no noise. The G10 is an amazing camera in the right hands, as Buba has demonstrated many times on here. However for the absolute best performance, among these cams in low light, I think the XA10 beats the ones we've been talking about.

Noa, you're XH-A1, as you know, cannot compare to any of these cameras in low light. The XH-A1 was, in my mind, never good in low light even when it was new.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Weird, then the 760 must perform differently? I get virtually noise free footage with the 730 at 21 db, cleaner then 1600 iso on my dslr and certainly cleaner then 6db on my Canon.

Re: Canon XA10
 

yes I know, 6db gain is often necessary, even in churches that are not that dark and higher up was unusable for my standards, I even found 6db not good, but like I stated the730 has cleaner footage at 21db gain then the xh-a1 at 6db, therefore it seems that Buba's 760 performs differently?

I have done side by side tests with my 550d this weekend at a wedding and 24db gain was comparable with 3200 iso on a 1.4 lens and had less grain. I would be very happy to shoot at 21db gain and if I need the shot at 24db gain, it looks better then any camera I have owned before.

I was thinking about getting the xa10 as a second camera but have to be sure how it will match with the small sony's, it's listed here at a very good pricepoint, about 800 euro's cheaper then the sony nx30 and for that price difference I"m willing to trade in the wideangle benefits..

Re: Canon XA10
 

We are seriously considering an XA10 to use along with our Sony V1's and Canon HV20 we currently have in our Wedding and Event videography. We have experience already color correcting the Canon HV20 to match the Sony V1 look so I don't think that will be a problem for us.

We love the Sony V1's even though tape is nearing the end so we think an XA10 will be a great cam to use for receptions. No more changing tapes as long as we have a big enough SD card and the XA10 will be very light in a steadicam setup.

Reading this thread has encouraged me that the XA10 will be a good fit. I think the prejudice people had in the past against smaller cameras is going away as people realize what a great job a lot of small camera's can do with today's technology.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Be forewared: If you buy an XA10 you will like the images, but you will never be happy with your V1 again. A 1/4" inch CCD chip from the old V1 cannot compare to the newer Canon CMOS sensor in the XA10. There is absolutely no comparison between the cameras you are using and the XA10.

Your newer footage will be tricky to match. The quality of the images from you XA10 will make the rest of your footage look relatively poor. The XA10 has a learning curve, but not much. Using the exposure wheel is a cinch once you get used to it. Good luck D.J.

I suspect that, eventually, you will want to buy a G10 to match up with your XA10.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Jeff, I hear what you are saying but doesn't the fact that the V1 is a 3 chip camera and the XA10 just one help the V1 in a comparison? I know they have made great advances in CMOS technology and that is the only reason I am considering a one chip camera but I am surprised you think it will be that much better than a V1.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Correct me if I'm wrong but the HVR V1 has 3 ClearVid CMOS sensors according to what I found on the Sony site.

D.J.: Where you will notice the most difference between your V1 and the XA10 is that the image will be a bit sharper and the low light capability will be much better, only how both camera's will match colorwise I don't know. I do have a (hdv) xh-a1 and a recently purchased cx730 and all I can say it's amazing what comes out of today's small handicams, imagewise it performs better in any area compared to my xh-a1, only my xh-a1 seem to have a better dynamic range, but have not done any actual tests.

Biggest difference ofcourse is lack of real manual control but that you know if you work with a hv20.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Over time technology advances, both in sensors and in digital signal processing. The curent 1/4" sensor is better than the 1/2" of the 1990s. However, there are other differnces such as DOF, lenses and recording formats and media that introduce artifacts.

What counts is what the client/customer thinks when they see the final product. It may be poor form a technical standpoint, and a very poor representation of reality, but if it looks pretty to their eyes they are happy.

Re: Canon XA10
 

D.J., yes I have edited images from both cams shot in similar conditions, and the V1 is not in even close tot he same league image wise. As Don says it's the customer that matters, but the V1 was the single worst camera I ever had the misfortune to use at a wedding. In low light it was just beyond terrible. You will love the XA10, at least you'll like it's images. You'll miss the manual controls but that's about it.

Single sensors are said to have better dynamic range than three chip cameras, but I don't know if it's true.

Like I said earlier, your V1 will become an issue in low light because you will not be able to match the cameras easily at all, the XA10 will make the V1 footage look pretty bad. The V1 looked pretty rough to me compared to the Z1 back in the day, and that was a couple years ago. I can't imagine it next to the XA10.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Was the z1 not the pro version of the fx1? I have edited some fx1 footage that was used at a wedding where I was filming with my xh-a1. From what I remember the fx1 did produce very nice and warm colors and was not easy to match to my xh-a1 as there was quite some difference colorwise. But Like you said, low light sucks on these first gen hdv camera's but beside that, I thought the image was very good in good light.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Yes Noa, the Z1 was/is fine, I'm talking about the V1 which has the 1/4" sensors. The Z1 (FX1) chips are 1/3" and much better. If I'm mixed up and creating confusion here I do apologize. when I mentioned the Z1 earlier I was implying that it was superior to the V1.

Re: Canon XA10
 

Oh, now I see I"m mixing up camera's :) allthough I don't have any experience with these first generation 1/4th inch hdv camera I can imagine that the difference with the current xa10 will be even bigger. I was first thinking of the fx1 but like you said it's another size sensor.