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Canon XF Series HD Camcorders
Canon XF305, XF205 and XF105 (with SDI), Canon XF300, XF200 and XF100 (without SDI).


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Old January 19th, 2010, 05:00 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Galvan View Post
...

They said completely new designed CCD sensor block. Who knows what new things this sensor block will be able to do (and remember, still no confirmation on actual size).

And they will definitely come out with an interchangeable lens camera, there is no evidence otherwise.
It would make sense to redesign it to from 1440 to 1920 since it probably won't be recording in a format w/ anamorphic pixels. As I think about this more, I doubt Canon will abandon 1/3" in their pro line, esp. if they will be coming out with an interchangeable lens model. There is simply too much demand for 1/3".
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Old January 19th, 2010, 05:43 PM   #77
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...it sure sounds like the image quality of Panasonic's AVCHD compression is right on par with XDCAM EX.
AVCHD at that bitrate might look like XDCAM during playback but certainly won't work the same through the postproduction workflow. Streamlined production is all about workflow, process, and interoperability. That's one thing that Sony has done well in this business.
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Old January 20th, 2010, 03:06 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Jad Meouchy View Post
AVCHD at that bitrate might look like XDCAM during playback but certainly won't work the same through the postproduction workflow. Streamlined production is all about workflow, process, and interoperability. That's one thing that Sony has done well in this business.
That depends on your workflow. If you transcode to an intermediate (like Cineform's), there's no serious difference. Editing natively, the gap in performance (speed) between AVC and MPEG-2 will be closing pretty rapidly (as future generations of CPUs roll out and software support improves).
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Old January 20th, 2010, 09:49 PM   #79
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I would still agree with Jad, after serious grading and effects the XDCAM codec will be more robust
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Old January 21st, 2010, 02:04 AM   #80
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High bit rate AVCHD is more diffcult to work with in post b/c the codec is very computationally intensive, but I can think of no reason why it would be less gradeable in post.

XDCAM EX has a MUCH more established workflow that will make working with it considerably easier. But that doesn't mean it's visually superior or can be pushed more when being graded.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 09:42 AM   #81
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I would still agree with Jad, after serious grading and effects the XDCAM codec will be more robust
I think it depends which XDCAM codec. AVCHD and XDCAM EX are both 8bit 4:2:0, so I'm not sure there's much difference there. But XDCAM HD422 is 4:2:2 (also 8-bit, I think) so it would be better for grading.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 10:29 AM   #82
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Full bore 24Mbps AVCHD compression image quality and 35Mbps XDCAM EX compression image quality are really quite comparable.
That all depends. The 35 Mb/s from the Sony EX is for the picture only. Sound is extra on top of that. While I seem to recall that the 24Mb/s rating of AVCHD includes the sound datarate in that total.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 02:23 PM   #83
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Even uncompressed audio is well under 10% of total bandwidth - and compressed audio, far less.

AVC, at roughly 2/3 the bandwidth of MPEG-2, can produce roughly similar quality, if the codec is efficient. AVC is still fairly young, so some modest improvements on in-camera compression efficiency are likely over the next few years, but right now it looks like codec efficiency in prosumer level AVCHD camcorders is already quite respectable. The major camcorder manufactures have had more than a couple years of experience, producing consumer AVCHD camcorders. In this industry, that's a whale of a long time really.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 04:44 PM   #84
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To put numbers on the data rate,
48 KHz 16 bit PCM stereo sound requires 1.536 Mbps.
The compressed MP3 sound that normally piggybacks on HDV and AVCHD uses ~376 Kbps.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 05:15 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Robert M Wright View Post
AVC is still fairly young, so some modest improvements on in-camera compression efficiency are likely over the next few years, but right now it looks like codec efficiency in prosumer level AVCHD camcorders is already quite respectable.
A lot has been said in the UK recently about the BBC HD channel and bitrates. The coding system is H264, and until a few months ago the bitrate was around 16Mbs, then it was announced (to howls of protest) that it would be reduced down to 9.7Mbs. The argument was that they had got new coders, much more efficient, and this is what allowed them to reduce the bitrate for comparable quality.

I was sceptical when I heard what was proposed, but my own subsequent experience is that what they say seems accurate - I'm noticing virtually no difference in picture quality. This is all referenced at BBC - BBC Internet Blog: The Hitchhiker's Guide to Encoding: Life, Encoders and Everything (Or a brief history of HD encoding)

I'll quote just a bit of that:
Quote:
......ever since the BBC HD Channel trial started in 2006. When we started, real-time H264 coding was quite new and the early versions of encoders were not that much more efficient than the existing MPEG2 HD encoders.

EBU - TECH 3328 Current Status of High Definition Television Delivery Technology (May 2008)
... EBU investigations in 2005 showed that some MPEG-4 H.264/AVC hardware encoders did not show any bitrate advantage over MPEG-2 and in some cases even performed less well than MPEG-2 encoders. This situation improved by September 2006, and continued to improve in 2007 and 2008.
Yes - a couple of years ago even expensive broadcast real time encoders weren't that much more efficient than MPEG2. It's only relatively recently that the theoretical promises of AVC have started to be realised in practice, at least for real time encoding.

(Blu-Ray is different, when the coding is done in non-real time, and two-pass becomes possible, for camcorders you obviously need a real time encoder.)

So if that was the situation for real time broadcast a couple of years ago, and I don't find it credible that the AVC-HD encoder in a prosumer camera such as the HMC150 was substantially better.

That is not to say the situation won't change, so my feeling is that future improvements will be more than modest, but AVC-HD in cameras whose design is a year or two old is not that much better than MPEG2.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 08:10 PM   #86
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Very interesting. This stuff is complex, but it is important to stay on top of it all.
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Old January 24th, 2010, 07:49 PM   #87
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Hang in there.......you may be very surprised by the end of 2010. That's all I can say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Drews View Post
Great article Chris.
But ouch Canon!
You had the SLR sensor that changed the industry but not the foresight to get it into whats next for video.
We want Form-Factor dammit!
A Pity...
Go 2011! Or Scarlet for 2010! ;)
-C
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Old January 25th, 2010, 12:30 AM   #88
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That sounds interesting!
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Old January 25th, 2010, 02:53 PM   #89
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Hang in there.......you may be very surprised by the end of 2010. That's all I can say.
It would be uncharacteristic for Canon to introduce a new model, and then top it in the same year. If there is something else coming out, it probably is different enough not to threaten sales on this prototype.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 04:39 PM   #90
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Thinking about this and reading what everyone has posted, if I were Canon I'd continue w/ the 1/3" for as long as I could get away with... maybe move up to 1/2" or at the most 2/3" in another pro video line.

And I'd let the DSLR continue to merge w/ digital cinema camera needs. But I would not create a specifically designed "Red killer" camera, as I don't want to get into a fight over such a small market.
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