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Canon XF305, XF205 and XF105 (with SDI), Canon XF300, XF200 and XF100 (without SDI).


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Old June 11th, 2011, 10:32 AM   #31
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Re: Cheap & reliable CF card

Dear Erik,

CompactFlash card manufacturers typically work hard to get their cards certified by Canon.

I know for a fact that Delkin and Axtremex have worked hard to do so.

It is in Canon's best interests, in my humble opinion, to get as many quality cards as possible certified.

To the best of my knowledge, Canon does not charge for a card to be certified.

Delkin and Canon were working very closely together to get the Delkin cards certified.

The tragedy in Japan has interrupted this certification process. In my opinon, this is completely understandable.

Many feel that CompactFlash cards are commodity items and interchangeable.

Actualy, each CompactFlash card has a Controller with Firmware, and the capabilities of a card vary widely by how the Firmware is programmed.

And of course, the speed of a card depends on the memory chips used and the design of the card internally.

I hope this helps.
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Old June 11th, 2011, 10:39 AM   #32
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Re: Cheap & reliable CF card

FYI, Adorama and B&H both have Sandisk Extreme 16GB cards on sale for about $60 each if you buy two (as of this writing June 11 2011). That's not as cheap as some of the non-approved cards, but the Sandisk Extreme is on Canon's list of CF cards that work *at any speed* on the XF100 and XF300.

And the comments regarding CF card speed harken to days of arguing horsepower and other specs about cars. There's so much more to a car than pure horsepower. And for CF cards, the 'X' ratings (300X, 400X, etc.) are misleading, abstract and not very useful. Anybody who has written software or designed computer hardware knows that there are numerous factors that can lead to higher performance. And in this case, any glitch in recording can be disastrous if you're only recording to one card.
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Last edited by Steve Maller; June 11th, 2011 at 10:41 AM. Reason: [additional question moved to new thread]
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Old June 11th, 2011, 10:52 AM   #33
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Re: Cheap & reliable CF card

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Bauer View Post
If you don't have solid, objective evidence for a statement like this, don't say it. And even it would be true, it is definitely not the whole story...
Certifying third party accessories is big business, of course not as big as selling the product, but you can be fairly certain that when one company recommends the product of another company, a deal has been struck, how much the deal is and who pays depends on who needs it the most. But assuming that some company do this for free is na´ve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Bauer View Post
IMO, not good advice at all. As Dan nicely pointed out, card brands and models ARE internally different from each other. Manufacturers buy different binning (read: quality) of parts and run them with different firmware, oftentimes changing specs over time in the same line of product.
Development is costly, and making significant changes to the hardware of largely similar series of products is not rational. To the contrary you often find products in different classes from the same manufacturer using same parts, to the extent that there are cases of advanced functions in the high end product simply being disabled in the firmware or buttons removed in the low end product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Bauer View Post
Some cards just aren't as fast as others, some don't have quite the quality control as others, and some probably have firmware limitations that others don't have. "Assuming" on this point is a great way to burn yourself.
In this particular case, I'm comparing Lexar Profesional 32GB in the three versions 600x, 400x and 300x (btw, the 300x no longer appears on Lexar's product list). Both the 300x and 600x are certified by Canon, the 400x is not. Lexar has no interest in introducing an inferior product in their profesional line, they would be better off simply not producing the 400x. So, on this argument, and that above, I think there's good reason to assume the 400x should work well with the camera.

Next, what do you get extra picking form Canon's list? Does using cards on the list imply any liability of Canon or the manufacturer? I think not. You get nothing! Except the knowledge that somebody at Canon tried the card and found it compliant.

Is there a big risk in buying a non certified card? No, unlike batteries, it's not like they're gonna break the camera. The risk is that the card is useless or you may loose footage - just as with a certified card that might just be that lemon in the basket.

Will I buy the 400x again? Yes. Would I recommend it? Yes. At least in Europe. When you buy online, EU consumer rights give you the right to try the purchased product and return it within 7 or 14 days if it doesn't meet your expectations. So, you can actually try and test it and if you've found a lemon, return it, money back no questions asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Bauer View Post
So will they certify some of these cheap cards you guys keep wanting to buy for this professional camera? I doubt it very much; I really don't see why they'd bother spending more money testing a whole bunch of low end cards.
I don't think that this particular card is more low end than the other cards in the same series, if it were, Lexar would not have any interest in branding it with the high end products. I doubt that Canon spends money certifying cards but rather the card manufacturers pay Canon to do it. Will Lexar spend money certifying the 400x? Maybe not, if they can sell the more expensive cards instead or they have some newer cards coming up. Does it make a difference? No, if it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Bauer View Post
do as you will; it is your money and your risk.
Thanks! I didn't expect to ask your permission though :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Bauer View Post
Me, I just budgeted a grand for 2 x 64GB Sandisk Extreme Pro cards to go with the camera when I bought it. That's my approach to feelin' lucky.
Good for you.

Depending on your needs and how deep your pocket is, buying certified cards or not is a rational choice with the risks implied. Which choice that comes out of the equation depends. Simply ranting against anything not certified by Canon is as na´ve as blindly recommending whatever should be compliant according to the specs.

BR, Erik
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Old June 11th, 2011, 11:03 AM   #34
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Re: Cheap & reliable CF card

Nigel, I would accept your argument if neither of my cards worked. But one works fine. Rather it appears I've got a lemon which could happen with certified cards as well.

Now, as you know in the EU if you report a product faulty within the first 6 months it is assumed a manufacturer error and the reseller has to prove otherwise to refuse repair or replacement under warranty. I've discovered this issue after just 3 months.

BR, Erik
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Old June 11th, 2011, 02:56 PM   #35
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Re: Cheap & reliable CF card

Well, Erik, let me be even more blunt than I usually am:

If you have facts about Canon's certification process, share them or shut up about them. If you're wrong, it is libel. I haven't edited this thread so far but this needs to stop.

Quote:
Development is costly, and making significant changes to the hardware of largely similar series of products is not rational.
Sorry, as an absolute statement, simply wrong. It happens both ways depending on the company and product line: sometimes the same part is used throughout a line from bottom to top, sometimes even the same SKU made on different dates will have different components and/or firmware. VERY common in small electronics.

Quote:
Is there a big risk in buying a non certified card? No...
I say again, do you feel lucky? IF a person does his or her own careful and lengthy testing before going on a big shoot, it reduces the risk of surprises. Even so, the risk of a damaged or lost recording will be much greater with an uncertified card than with one that is certified. Look at this very thread -- there are examples right here of unpleasant surprises. If you're filming the family dogs wrestling in the back yard, oh well, who cares. If it is a first shoot for a big new client, you get what you deserve for taking a gamble you didn't have to take.

Quote:
Simply ranting against anything not certified by Canon is as na´ve as blindly recommending whatever should be compliant according to the specs.
Neither of us is ranting, but you're making both unsupportable and wrong statements, and as well, we have different risk assessments and different solutions.

My advice remains the same: If you choose to use an uncertified card and have problems, don't come crying to us about it: any card over 60MB/s is overkill, correct?
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Old June 11th, 2011, 04:50 PM   #36
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Re: Cheap & reliable CF card

I'm with Pete on this.....this thread is going in circles. Eric- you can have your opinion but you seem to want all of your fellow posters to declare that you are correct and ..........enough.

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Old June 11th, 2011, 05:09 PM   #37
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Re: Cheap & reliable CF card

Hey, I'm a newbie here, but from the sidelines, here's what I see.

If you are willing to take a risk, and your shoots don't represent much value, so ahead and experiment with random cards.

If, on the other hand, each day's shoot represents hundreds or thousands of dollars (as is the case for me), you may want to stick with the cards which Canon has certified. How that gets done doesn't matter to me.

I unboxed my XF105 yesterday, and am still waiting for the cards to come in. But, I did order Sandisk Extreme Pro. When I fly four or five people in for one day of video shooting, I'm not risking even one take on questionable cards.
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Old June 11th, 2011, 06:06 PM   #38
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Re: Cheap & reliable CF card

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Norgaard View Post
Nigel, I would accept your argument if neither of my cards worked. But one works fine. Rather it appears I've got a lemon which could happen with certified cards as well.

Now, as you know in the EU if you report a product faulty within the first 6 months it is assumed a manufacturer error and the reseller has to prove otherwise to refuse repair or replacement under warranty. I've discovered this issue after just 3 months.

BR, Erik
Good luck getting it replaced as neither Canon nor Lexar claim that the 400X card works with XF cameras. You may not have a lemon. You may have one card that is exceeding specifications (by actually working with XF) & the other card is working to specifications i.e. it doesn't work properly. Maybe the performance of Lexar's 400X product isn't consistent? Maybe Canon tested the 400X cards & found they didn't work? Who knows? Who cares? I just checked on Amazon & the certified Sandisk Extreme Compact Flash cards are cheaper than the 400X Lexar cards so it seems pointless to waste money on the Lexar 400X cards in the hope that they might work.
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