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Canon XF Series HD Camcorders
Canon XF305, XF205 and XF105 (with SDI), Canon XF300, XF200 and XF100 (without SDI).


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Old January 5th, 2013, 03:51 PM   #1
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Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

I've had my XF105 and XF305 for a few months now and spent several weeks pouring through all the posts on CP settings after purchasing and watching the Vortex Media training videos. I also have the large set of warm cards. I've setup a small studio and have been trying to match the XF105 and XF305 using the various CP settings (awesome work to all that supplied information).

I decided to stick with the BBC settings as a starting point except I set the Knee Point to 95. I see similar results with CP Off, Truvid and XFMojo which have values for both cameras.

I'm getting very different values when I manually set the WB. I zoom into the white warm card and hold the white balance button with Custom A selected. I have two Interfit Super 5 Cool Lights using soft boxes that are 5500K. The XF305 is in the 5-6K range depending on how many bulbs are on and how close I am to the warm card. The XF105 is always around 1K less. The XF305 seems to have a blue cast when zoomed into the white card, but looks white in Premiere.

The XF305 seems to me to have a red cast compared with the XF105. The settings that best matched the XF305 to the XF105 were Color Matrix Phase at -10 to -18 or setting Color Matrix R-G from the recommended -8 to around -40 on the XF305. The color of my background wall and some red and blue objects in the scene, including my arm and hand, are closer to what I see with my eye, external monitor and Premiere Pro CS6 from the XF105. I have only shot indoors so far as I live in Seattle. It will be interesting to see how they do outdoors when we get some sun.

XF105: CP Off - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...kNRQXV3QmxwTkk
XF305: CP Off - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...3gwSnRNWS1CSEU
XF105: CP BBC - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...XJESFdjT0EyUEU
XF305: CP BBC - https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8E...XUxSHZhUTJoSm8

I'd appreciate any insights you have regarding the WB disparity and what CP settings you've found to match the cameras.

Thanks,
Rob
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Old January 9th, 2013, 11:41 AM   #2
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

I called Canon CPS today and they suggested I remove the protective lens filter and do a reset to factory settings with a paperclip on both cameras. I'm going to try that tonight and will post the results.

Does anyone have both cameras that could share how well their cameras match WB and color?

Thanks,
Rob
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Old January 9th, 2013, 10:11 PM   #3
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

Hi Rob,

I also have an XF 305 and a 105. I have found a similar mismatch. Shooting the exact same scene, under the same lighting, with the cameras swapped out in the same tripod, set to the same settings, I get a white balance value of 4900K on my 305 and 6300K on my 105. And the colors are slightly different.

I tried several of the custom profiles found on the net (including the Vortex ones - I have the DVD set also) and shot some still lifes with both cameras and carefully examined the footage side by side to see the differences. I ended up tweaking one of the profiles I found to suit my taste, and tweaked each camera separately so they matched up better.

When I get a chance, I'll post what values I ended up using.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 11:25 AM   #4
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

Thanks Steve, I'd really appreciate having your settings.

Also, thanks to Andy for doing a similar WB test on his XF105 and XF305 and pointing me to some resources on the web.


Rob
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Old February 7th, 2013, 04:21 PM   #5
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hontz View Post
Hi Rob,

I also have an XF 305 and a 105. I have found a similar mismatch. Shooting the exact same scene, under the same lighting, with the cameras swapped out in the same tripod, set to the same settings, I get a white balance value of 4900K on my 305 and 6300K on my 105. And the colors are slightly different.

I tried several of the custom profiles found on the net (including the Vortex ones - I have the DVD set also) and shot some still lifes with both cameras and carefully examined the footage side by side to see the differences. I ended up tweaking one of the profiles I found to suit my taste, and tweaked each camera separately so they matched up better.

When I get a chance, I'll post what values I ended up using.
Steve...any chance you could find time to post your settings? I have the same problem and would love a solution if you have one? thanks
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Old February 10th, 2013, 07:59 PM   #6
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

I'd be interested to see the settings too. My XF300 and XF100 both produce nice images (in good light) but they don't look the same as each other. This means fiddling around in post which is bad is a speedy turn around is needed.
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Old February 12th, 2013, 11:41 AM   #7
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

sent you a PM
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Old February 18th, 2013, 10:06 AM   #8
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

Sorry it took so long to post my settings. They're in the attached ZIP file. The profile I use is "S&L 1". You'll notice some other profiles in there that I've gleaned from several sources - thanks to all of those that share what worked for them!

My profile isn't anything special - I just did a bunch of test shots, took some of the other profiles, stirred them together, and adjusted the settings until I got what I liked. I seem to shoot a lot in less than ideal lighting, so these settings may not work so well outdoors or if you have good lighting.

The attached photo shows the XF305 on the left, the XF105 on the right. I think it's a pretty good match.
Attached Thumbnails
Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305-xf305-105-comparison.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: zip Canon XF 305-105 Settings.zip (15.1 KB, 407 views)

Last edited by Steve Hontz; February 18th, 2013 at 10:10 AM. Reason: Commented on photo
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Old February 18th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #9
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

Thanks for posting Steve. The results you are getting look very much better than the matching I can get with the profile I'm currently using.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 11:22 AM   #10
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

Steve,
Thanks so much for posting those CP files. Great to have the BBC versions on the same SD card as well.

I am finding it quite difficult to get consistent white balancing between my XF105 and XF305, even when using white cards and Warm Cards from Vortex. I am using mostly daylight balanced softboxes and LED lights but have a consistent greenish cast vs. the XF305, even when balancing both with the same card. Anyone else have similar experience? I guess so since that is why the thread is started! Steve's profiles CAN look very good/consistent but white balance values seem more difficult to figure out.

Another puzzling thing on the XF105 is that I have white balanced against a card and got a certain "K" value. I have then switched to the PRESET value and changed that manually using the joystick to the SAME value as I got with the card and yet the color cast will look different! Does white balancing against a card change other parameters besides just the "K" value behind the scenes? Could not figure that one out.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 06:10 PM   #11
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

Daniel, I did the exact same thing you did - i.e., white balance both cameras, right next to each other, under the same lighting, and got two different K values. Then, if I try to dial in the same K value so they match, they definitely don't look the same.

I think the cameras are just different. My profile doesn't really address the issue, but it suited my immediate needs and I haven't had a chance to go back and run some more tests to see if I could make them closer.
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Old February 24th, 2013, 11:30 AM   #12
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

Rob, your samples look about what I would expect with both cameras. I would say, without a great deal of technical understanding about the guts of the two cameras, that you are seeing the 'sensor tone', is how I say it. Canon for some reason calls this the normal balance of the sensor. All cameras seem to have a slight tone favorite. Panny GH3s seem to favor a blueish cast. Panny HMC150s tend to make browns more red out of the box. Canon seem to favor the reds on the 305s and the 5Ds. 105s seem to favor,ever so slightly, green. I don't see it so much in the faces, but the large areas of a color, like wood floors on a stage, and somewhat in large shadow areas, such as the wall seems to be. Subtle, but there. And I agree with Steve. The cameras are two different cameras with two very different sensors and electronics. Steve's stage shots are about as good as you can hope for, and frankly, I think they are "matched" to my eye. Flesh tones are about the same, as are the blues. So I tweak the color profiles slightly to offset this. Use your camera scopes to do that. There is a discussion somewhere on the boards about doing that. And it is really useful. Using the scopes you can dial in your balance just swell. I believe that it needs you to fill the screen with a grey card, not white, and work to center the red dot to the middle. You will see the slight color shift present when you first start, leaning one way or the other. When I finally centered it and altered the color balance, it all fell into place. Sorry I can't remember where I saw that advice, but check around. Once I tuned to that, my 305 stopped leaning to red.

UPDATE: Here's the post I referred to, since I was slightly off on my technique. Check it out. Especially the post from Martin.
Wb xf305


Out of the box, my 305 has a distinctly reddish (pinkish) cast with no CP or tweaking at all. I dial down the red specifically to cut this out. I call it a "Canon" look. It does not even come close to matching, say a GH3. So if you shoot between two cameras, spend some time working it out. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. If you buy two 305s, I've never had problems matching the look without any work. I think that if you want to shoot two cameras and get a match without spending hours in post, you should buy two of the same cameras. I've come to that conclusion after years of trying.

My clients don't see the difference. But I've got great stage shots with both. I would recommend considering sharpening the 105 in post when trying to match the 305. The 105 single sensor is just not as sharp. Also, don't get me started on the lame ND on the 105. I would never buy another camera with a similar electronic ND. Just not responsive when the chips are down.

Last edited by Al Bergstein; February 24th, 2013 at 12:10 PM. Reason: Added link to similar post on the subject.
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Old March 24th, 2013, 01:06 PM   #13
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

Hi Steve,

Thanks for posting your profiles. I installed them on my cameras and don't see a profile named S&L 1.

The ones I see are:

SD1: VORTEX_A
SD2: BBC_Vid
SD3: BBC_File
SD4: J. Cine12
SD5: DEEP CLR

I unzipped the files and overwrote all the profiles on my SD card with the ones from your zip file. Not sure if it's something I'm missing.

Thanks,
Rob
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Old March 24th, 2013, 10:22 PM   #14
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

If you open the CAMSET folder, then open the CAMSET.TXT file in a text editor, it shows all the settings for S&L 1. You could use that to make your own CP file. Not quite as convenient, but still lets you try it.

On another issue - I'm increasingly enjoying learning to adjust in post. I don't feel qualified to call what I do Color Grading :-) but I'm considering breaking my long standing approach of getting a saturated, contrasty look in-camera, since I always tweak it anyway.

What's the general consensus on this? Is it correct that there's nothing I can achieve in-camera that I can't also achieve by shooting flat and adjusting levels/curves/saturation/sharpness/etc. in post?? Are the only factors just that doing it in post takes longer, but you have more freedom since you don't have a very baked in look to start from?

And for folks that shoot this way, what do you use as the starting point for your grading??? OFF, BBC, what?

Thanks
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Old March 25th, 2013, 04:14 PM   #15
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Re: Matching CP and WB Settings on an XF105 and XF305

David I find the BBC settings a good starting point for a flat profile.

I have found that whatever profiles I am using (flat or not) the one thing that is absolutely critical is getting the white balance set correctly. If it's off it makes any post processing a real pain in the rear. I come from a still background where I have almost never taken any of my DSLRs out of auto WB and only ever had to change it in post when I deliberately wanted to alter the WB. The XF video cameras are not at all like this.
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