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Canon XH Series HDV Camcorders
Canon XH G1S / G1 (with SDI), Canon XH A1S / A1 (without SDI).


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Old December 11th, 2007, 04:22 AM   #1
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60i to 24p

Hello. Does anyone know if you can take 60i footage and effectively turn it into 24p footage, or something almost equivalent? It is my understanding that the best picture quality to be had with this cam is that of 60i. I guess you can use an app in post to make it close to 24p. Basically, I want the best possible picture quality and the most "film-like" look achievable from the xa-a1, if I buy one. One day I will cease being a newbie and join the ranks of the tech-savy, but that process would be greatly slowed were it not for the knowledge of the members of dvi; thanks in advance guys.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 06:58 AM   #2
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I would think you would want to shoot it in the 24F mode if that is your desired output, and not 60i and have to deal with deinterlacing, pulldown, etc. in post. I am not sure you would ever yield better results creating your 24p in post than just shooting 24p(F) to begin with.

Enlighten me if I am wrong, though.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 07:01 AM   #3
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Many options for 60i to 24 p conversion

If you use cineform products the HDlink will perform this.

Red Giant Magic Bullet Suite 2.1 will do a great job with After Effects.

And the latest and I will say the greatest is the Red Giant Frames product.
This will work with many applications including Avid, Premiere, Final Cut, and of course afer effects.


This is almost ready to be released and I am using it in beta.

http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/magicbulletframes.html


Also After Effects alone will perform the conversion.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 10:26 AM   #4
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Go here.
http://www.videocopilot.net/tutorials.html?id=41
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Old December 11th, 2007, 02:49 PM   #5
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I would just shoot in 24f...but it degrades resolution.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 03:00 PM   #6
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Not really. The rez with the A1 is so high to begin with, the small vertical rez loss shooting in 24f is negligible.

Bill
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Old December 11th, 2007, 03:36 PM   #7
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Then, by that logic, would it be smarter to shoot 24f over 60i, seeing as deinterlacing causes picture degradation as well? Does deinterlaced 60i footage suffer a greater resolution loss than canon's 24f mode?
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Old December 11th, 2007, 03:51 PM   #8
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The difference is negligible. If you want to end up with 24fps, it's better to shoot it that way from the beginning. You don't have any interlace artifacts when you export for DVD, fo rone thing. Secondly, since it's a real 24 frames that go by in a second, the motion is different from 60i converted via reverse pulldown. I don't see that "judder" when shooting at 24 fps.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 04:19 PM   #9
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Interesting. If one were to use a percentage scale for how much resolution is lost by using the 24f mode over the 60i mode...what would it be? 10 percent?
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Old December 11th, 2007, 05:30 PM   #10
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The 24F on the XH-A1 is simply stunning in my opinion. I just got the camera last week. I know that resolution is supposed to take a 10% hit in 24F and 30F, but I can't see a difference. It looks better to me than the "true" 24p from my HV20. I am a certified pixel peeper, and from my standpoint I think that the skepticism about 24F is a bit over the top. The other advantage of 24F, as opposed to 24P coded with pulldown on M2t is that only the 24F frames are encoded so you have more bandwidth to handle both motion and detail. At least as I understand it, you are less likley to get motion artifacts from 24F. You need to use editing and capture software that can handle 24F. In my case, I am using Cineform's Neo HDV to capture and Vegas to edit. My jaw dropped when I saw my first 24F footage captured and processed to 1080 24p. 24F files are also processed more quickly than 60i (or so it seems).

I can't see any reason to not use 24F. I think you will lose more resolution and waste a nice feature if you start with 60i.

Pat
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Old December 11th, 2007, 06:19 PM   #11
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Pat,

As I am new to all of this, I wasn't aware that you could convert 24f to 24p. How is this done? Does it degrade the image resolution in any way?
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Old December 11th, 2007, 09:53 PM   #12
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Hi Spencer, 24F is 24P. It is captured with a non-progressive sensor but converted to true progressive frames in-camera, then true 24P files area written to tape as HDV, without pulldown. Your capture and editing software need to be able to figure out that it is 24P on the HDV file, not 60i. There's tons of posts on this. Here's one I found with a forum search for "24F" :

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&highlight=24F

Even though I can't see it, there is apparently a real loss of resolution to the tune of 10% to 12%:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....0&postcount=39

If you use 24F from the camera you will be on the fast track to great looking, true 24P footage at the end of your editing process. If you convert 60i to 24p, you will spend more of your time and the computer's time doing so. I would hazard a guess the net reolution would not be any better than 24F (which is Canon's flavor of 24P)

Pat
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Old December 12th, 2007, 12:00 PM   #13
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Thanks for the info, Pat. Most helpful.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 09:08 AM   #14
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Here is the link to the thread from about a year ago where I posted resolution results for the Canon XH-A1 and HV10 acquired with the Imatest MTF50 image testing software. The links to the data charts are dead, but the posted results are still shown and they are valid.

The bottom line is that 24F and 30F do show a resolution loss of 10-12% compared to 60i, in the vertical direction only, no loss of resolution in the horizontal direction. So the overall resolution loss for the picture taken as a whole (veritcal and horizontal) seems rather small numericaly, but you should be the judge of that.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?...0&postcount=39

Edit: Pat Reddy already found the post! Good job Pat!
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Old December 14th, 2007, 09:55 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Reddy View Post
...At least as I understand it, you are less likley to get motion artifacts from 24F.
I think it was the other way around. You got more motion artifacts from 24F than in 60i. It shows especially if you do some panning shots.
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