24f 60i? or What? I'm confused! at DVinfo.net

Lloyd Claycomb · January 26th, 2008, 09:09 PM

As I mentioned on a previous post, I am gearing up to do some man-on-the-street interviews for a Christian-themed program I'm doing with my brand new A1. The end product will mostly end up on DVD (NTSC), some TV and some internet-based.

Is there a any kind of industry standard for choosing what frame rate to record at? I don't plan on ever turning these into some indy film production, but I would like to anticipate for converting some to PAL at a later point.

Is it a matter of taste, or is there a clear winner that looks best for informational-type videos like I'm doing? (These will be similar to like what on-scene reporters do for the news.).

I've read through scores of different threads on this and just when I think I should go one way, I get more and more confused. Any help on this would be much appreciated!

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum. This is my second post.

Chris Soucy · January 26th, 2008, 10:17 PM

If it's about an A1, you got the right forum.

For your NTSC work I can't think of a better format to shoot in but 60i HDV, then cut it down to SD in post.

It looks smoother, camera movement isn't an issue unless it's gross and all round I think the way to go.

I am very fuzzy about converting that to PAL however, so I'll let one of the other members clue us both up about that.

CS

PS. Welcome to DVinfo, BTW.

Lloyd Claycomb · January 26th, 2008, 10:35 PM

Thanks for the reply. As far as the PAL part goes, I actually have no plans at all to convert anything to PAL. It's more of a thing of mine that I like to plan for the unknown as much as I can.

I may never do anything in PAL, but if for some unknown reason I need to go back over a few seasons' worth of videos and convert a NTSC program to PAL, I'd like to have the peace of mind that I wouldn't have to reshoot everything! :)

An ounce of prevention.....

Lloyd Claycomb · January 27th, 2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Soucy

If it's about an A1, you got the right forum.

For your NTSC work I can't think of a better format to shoot in but 60i HDV, then cut it down to SD in post.

It looks smoother, camera movement isn't an issue unless it's gross and all round I think the way to go.

Is this what most news casts are done in? Do you know? I think that's the look I'm going for, but I'm open for suggestions.

Thanks for your reply.

Bill Pryor · January 27th, 2008, 12:55 PM

TV news in the U.S. is 60i and the lighting is very flat and even between background and foreground.

Lloyd Claycomb · January 27th, 2008, 07:02 PM

Does the same thing go for reality shows? 60i?

Bill Pryor · January 27th, 2008, 08:51 PM

I think most of what you see on TV that's video-originated (except for independent movies) would be 60i. All the narratives would probably be shot at 24 fps, whether film or HD.

Travis Breitenbach · January 29th, 2008, 12:01 PM

In my opinion you should always shoot 60i. Its the broadcast and DVD distribution standard and will give you more options and less headache in post. I think you'd also have the easiest time going to PAL if needed.

I think the 24fps video thing is a ridiculous joke played on gullible new shooters, an out-of control trend based on hype rather than actual results. 24fps HD looks bad more often than it looks good.

Chris Hurd · January 29th, 2008, 12:51 PM

I would have to point out that 24P is made to look bad only by those who don't know how to shoot with it properly. Unfortunately there is a *lot* of lousy looking 24P video, but in the right hands, somebody who knows what they're doing can really make 24P sing.

I do agree that 24P should be avoided by those who are relatively new to video production in general.

Annie Haycock · January 29th, 2008, 03:51 PM

Why? Is there some special technique to using 24p? where do I find out more?

I've just tried 24p for flying birds after getting weird artifacts using 50i (I'm using PAL) and the flight shots look a lot better.

Presumably I should be using the same thing all the time, so if that is going to be 24p, then I need to know what I'm up against.

Thanks

Jonathan Shaw · January 29th, 2008, 04:38 PM

I normally shoot underwater and generally use 50i, but have had awesome results with 25f... I love it. Only issue is when I have to mix it up in the time line and then it's a real pain. I will probably shoot mostly in 50i but definately experiment as you can get great results.

Mike Pearce · January 31st, 2008, 06:58 AM

Im getting great results with 24f in sd, but with 24f hd its another story. Going to take more tweaking to get it where i want it.

Lloyd Claycomb · January 31st, 2008, 11:07 AM

[QUOTE=Travis Breitenbach]In my opinion you should always shoot 60i. Its the broadcast and DVD distribution standard and will give you more options and less headache in post./QUOTE]

The only thing I don't like about 60i is the home video look. 24p looks too choppy in my low-skilled hands, but 60i looks like America's Funniest Home Videos to me. Is 30f the happy middle ground for me? If so, can the HV20 also record in that like the A1?

Am I the only one that sees "amateur home video" written over it every time you see something in 60i? Maybe I'm being overly picky on my own stuff...

Jonathan Shaw · January 31st, 2008, 03:42 PM

Lloyd, when you say 60i looks like home video.. you can make HDV more filmy by a few simple things, I am definitley no expert but here is a few ideas:

White balance: Don't use auto, use manual or set to the temp of your lights depending on the look you want.

Exposure: Use Zebra to make sure that you are not over exposing the shot.

Focus: Use manual to stop the 'hunting' and use the long end of the lens to reduce the DOF for that subject in focus background out of focus. Put some motion in front of your subject again to give the shot more depth.

Use different camera angles: Low, pan to reveal, use exposure to reveal on the pan.

just some ideas...

Cheers

Jon

Marco Wagner · January 31st, 2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

The only thing I don't like about 60i is the home video look. 24p looks too choppy in my low-skilled hands, but 60i looks like America's Funniest Home Videos to me. Is 30f the happy middle ground for me? If so, can the HV20 also record in that like the A1?

Am I the only one that sees "amateur home video" written over it every time you see something in 60i? Maybe I'm being overly picky on my own stuff...

I've seen lots of 60i that you couldn't tell was 60i. Frames aren't everything, as said probably 100,000 times on this site. It's lighting, camera movement, DOF, sound, and a good subject that makes it. Add a 35mm adapter and they'll be guessing forever. My lastest video, USNR#1 was shot in 60i and looks no where near like home video, even before post.

January 26th, 2008, 10:17 PM	#2
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,682 Images: 18	Hi Lloyd.................. If it's about an A1, you got the right forum. For your NTSC work I can't think of a better format to shoot in but 60i HDV, then cut it down to SD in post. It looks smoother, camera movement isn't an issue unless it's gross and all round I think the way to go. I am very fuzzy about converting that to PAL however, so I'll let one of the other members clue us both up about that. CS PS. Welcome to DVinfo, BTW.

January 29th, 2008, 12:51 PM	#9
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	I would have to point out that 24P is made to look bad only by those who don't know how to shoot with it properly. Unfortunately there is a lot of lousy looking 24P video, but in the right hands, somebody who knows what they're doing can really make 24P sing. I do agree that 24P should be avoided by those who are relatively new to video production in general. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 29th, 2008, 04:38 PM	#11
Jonathan Shaw Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 552	I normally shoot underwater and generally use 50i, but have had awesome results with 25f... I love it. Only issue is when I have to mix it up in the time line and then it's a real pain. I will probably shoot mostly in 50i but definately experiment as you can get great results. __________________ www.ginclearfilm.com www.facebook.com/ginclearfilm

January 31st, 2008, 03:42 PM	#14
Jonathan Shaw Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 552	Lloyd, when you say 60i looks like home video.. you can make HDV more filmy by a few simple things, I am definitley no expert but here is a few ideas: White balance: Don't use auto, use manual or set to the temp of your lights depending on the look you want. Exposure: Use Zebra to make sure that you are not over exposing the shot. Focus: Use manual to stop the 'hunting' and use the long end of the lens to reduce the DOF for that subject in focus background out of focus. Put some motion in front of your subject again to give the shot more depth. Use different camera angles: Low, pan to reveal, use exposure to reveal on the pan. just some ideas... Cheers Jon __________________ www.ginclearfilm.com www.facebook.com/ginclearfilm

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January 26th, 2008, 09:09 PM	#1
Lloyd Claycomb Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Phoenix Posts: 208	24f 60i? or What? I'm confused! As I mentioned on a previous post, I am gearing up to do some man-on-the-street interviews for a Christian-themed program I'm doing with my brand new A1. The end product will mostly end up on DVD (NTSC), some TV and some internet-based. Is there a any kind of industry standard for choosing what frame rate to record at? I don't plan on ever turning these into some indy film production, but I would like to anticipate for converting some to PAL at a later point. Is it a matter of taste, or is there a clear winner that looks best for informational-type videos like I'm doing? (These will be similar to like what on-scene reporters do for the news.). I've read through scores of different threads on this and just when I think I should go one way, I get more and more confused. Any help on this would be much appreciated! Sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum. This is my second post.

January 26th, 2008, 10:35 PM	#3
Lloyd Claycomb Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Phoenix Posts: 208	Thanks for the reply. As far as the PAL part goes, I actually have no plans at all to convert anything to PAL. It's more of a thing of mine that I like to plan for the unknown as much as I can. I may never do anything in PAL, but if for some unknown reason I need to go back over a few seasons' worth of videos and convert a NTSC program to PAL, I'd like to have the peace of mind that I wouldn't have to reshoot everything! :) An ounce of prevention.....

January 27th, 2008, 12:55 PM	#5
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	TV news in the U.S. is 60i and the lighting is very flat and even between background and foreground.

January 27th, 2008, 07:02 PM	#6
Lloyd Claycomb Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Phoenix Posts: 208	Does the same thing go for reality shows? 60i?

January 27th, 2008, 08:51 PM	#7
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	I think most of what you see on TV that's video-originated (except for independent movies) would be 60i. All the narratives would probably be shot at 24 fps, whether film or HD.

January 29th, 2008, 12:01 PM	#8
Travis Breitenbach New Boot Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 12	In my opinion you should always shoot 60i. Its the broadcast and DVD distribution standard and will give you more options and less headache in post. I think you'd also have the easiest time going to PAL if needed. I think the 24fps video thing is a ridiculous joke played on gullible new shooters, an out-of control trend based on hype rather than actual results. 24fps HD looks bad more often than it looks good.

January 29th, 2008, 03:51 PM	#10
Annie Haycock Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pembrokeshire, Wales Posts: 734	Why? Is there some special technique to using 24p? where do I find out more? I've just tried 24p for flying birds after getting weird artifacts using 50i (I'm using PAL) and the flight shots look a lot better. Presumably I should be using the same thing all the time, so if that is going to be 24p, then I need to know what I'm up against. Thanks

January 31st, 2008, 06:58 AM	#12
Mike Pearce New Boot Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: VA USA Posts: 9	Im getting great results with 24f in sd, but with 24f hd its another story. Going to take more tweaking to get it where i want it.

January 31st, 2008, 11:07 AM	#13
Lloyd Claycomb Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Phoenix Posts: 208	[QUOTE=Travis Breitenbach]In my opinion you should always shoot 60i. Its the broadcast and DVD distribution standard and will give you more options and less headache in post./QUOTE] The only thing I don't like about 60i is the home video look. 24p looks too choppy in my low-skilled hands, but 60i looks like America's Funniest Home Videos to me. Is 30f the happy middle ground for me? If so, can the HV20 also record in that like the A1? Am I the only one that sees "amateur home video" written over it every time you see something in 60i? Maybe I'm being overly picky on my own stuff...